Is Bach having quality issues?

trombone · New Member Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 2

I tried searching for this subject but didn't find anything....

The store where I was shopping had a number of Bach Strad cornets on sale so I thought I might get one. They all had some kind of issue with quality. One had a big glob of solder where the leadpipe/third valve casing support is attached. One had a very sharp edge left where they usually trim off excess material on the ports.
This brings me to my next observation and question --
Is it normal to have small holes where the tubing is attached inside the valve piston? To me it would seem like oil and water would be more likely to make its way inside the valve itself and have a chance to cause corrosion. It looked like they weren't attached properly.

I'm not trying to cause trouble. Just wondering if the store got a bad batch of horns or if there are strange things going on in the Bach factory. I did end up getting one but went through all nine cornets they had in stock just looking for one that didn't have any, or the least amount of, issues.

So, has anyone else noticed this? Or am I just looking at them the wrong way?!

camelbrass · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject:

I've never seen mis-fitting insets into pistons on pro-grade horns but then again I've never really looked that hard. None of my horns has that problem but I can't imagine it would be all that good for the compression in that valve.

I've just bought a brand new 618XXX Strad trumpet and the fit and finish is really very good. I wonder how old this batch is?

Regards,

Trevor

Trumpet Dude · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject:

Interesting you should bring this up... I emailed Karl from www.bachbrass.com/contet/board.php and this is what went down

MY EMAIL
First off, thank you for taking my email, I look
forward to your response.

For some time now I have heard horror stories about
the Bach Strad and their inconsistency problems that
has plagued Selmer for years, mainly during the '90s
when the Strad had to increase their production
because of supply and demand. Yet at the same time Mt.
Vernon trumpets have been regarded as the best works
of art in the history of trumpet making. What caused
the slump in consistency (if any) and what is Bach
doing to change that? With the newly manufactured
Yamaha Xenos (8000's and 9000's) as well as the new
Conn V1s, both known for their high quality and
perfected consistency from horn to horn, how is Bach
trying to match their competitors? Bach has always had
a name for themselves and often a product to back it
up, but with more and more gossip surrounding the
Bach/Selmer company I would imagine they are trying to
improve their product to be back on top like the '60s
and '70s.

I have often heard that the inconsistencies in Bach's
could be contributed to their St rads manufacturing
process. Does Bach still make their trumpets from
molds or have they started to use computers? Sorry if
my assumptions seem condescending, that is what I have
always been told.

Thank you for your time, I look forward to hearing
from you.

Jon

His Response
to be blunt, "what you've always been told" is a crock. Bach's are at least as consistent as anyone else's horns. I've played them all, believe me. Yamaha makes good trumpets too, but they are not all the same either. They are all quite good and quite consistent. And, they're made the same way they've always been made. K.

Karl Sievers, DMA
Rhodesian Ridgeback owner
OU Trumpet Studio
Principal Trumpet, OKC Philharmonic

Overall it really didnot answer anyof my questions

_________________

trombahonker · Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject:

Trombone, first off, welcome to Trumpetherald.com!

The quality control issue at Bach has been a hot topic around here and while a lot of people on the forum seem to think the quality is going down, players like Karl Sievers seem to think it's going up. I'm not going to say whether or not it's better or worse, just that I had trouble finding a Bach C I liked and wound up purchasing a Yamaha Chicago.

As for the valves, yes, there is suppose to be a hole in the bottom of the valve and if you unscrew the valve stem you'll notice one is in the top below the spring.

You see, valves are made from hollow monel tubes,with holes drilled through in the correct places. Next, brass (or sometimes copper) tubes are put through in the correct form, bored to the correct circumference, then soldered in place and cut off to be fitted to the casing. On each end of the valve is a "cap" that keeps the majority of debris out of the valve while leaving ample ventilation for the inside around the tubes to actually stay free of water. So, just the opposite of what you though, the holes are traditionally there to keep moisture /out/.

If you're more of a visual guy, go here and look at the pictures of the valves being made for Zeus trumpets: http://www.zacharymusic.com/Zachary_Music/Factory.htm

Though those aren't Bach valves, most all trumpet valves are nearly the same in construction.

Cheers!
Aaron N.
_________________
Trombahonker's Practice Studio on Youtube

trombone · New Member Joined: 23 Mar 2005 Posts: 2

Thank you for the welcome!

I know about the holes in the tops and bottoms.
As they say, a pic is worth a thousand words:
(click on it to see full size image)

You can actually stick a pin in the hole, but it doesn't go through. Still doesn't seem like a good idea.
The serial numbers I remember were from 550,000 to 610,000.
They all had at least one valve that had small holes similar to the pic. One followed the edge of the port approx. 3 to 4 mm in length.

Archie Sawyer · Heavyweight Member Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 668

Wow!

Can't say that I've ever seen that before.

Archie

camelbrass · Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject:

That's pretty sloppy workmanship.

half91585 · Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject:

Well, I've noticed that any trumpet is different from the next. It's not the fact of valves, I think, I think that it's up to the player to finding a horn that hits him/her and that person's playing characteristics. I went through 15 different horns before I found a Bb Strad that suited me, and yet I still want to get some modifications done to it. Plain and simple, it's impossible to find a horn that plays perfectly and has no imperfections in it - we are always looking to improve something in our playing and unfortunately, most of the time we look to our horns than we do to our own performance. Granted, getting a horn fixed up does help, but it's not always the answer. I hope my thoughts help you in some way or another.
_________________
Aaron Gangi
freelance trumpet

OAS.AAS.LLS

Custom Bach 37G (Ita/Pilczuk)
Greg Black 1 1/2C 26 throat, 8 backbore
Greg Black NY2 25 throat with Warburton Q backbore

looking to buy a cheap flugel, C, or cornet

Mlockman · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:33 am Post subject:

I have purchaed a three receint Bach horns and have had students purchase many Bach horns. They all play well and I see no defects in the build quality. My opinion is, " everything coming from the Bach factory now-a-days is great". Bach is the standard by which all others are measured.
_________________
Bach Strad 37/25
Bach Strad LT 43 /25
Bach Strad C 229 25H CL,
Couesnon Flugelhorn 1970
Warburton WCC mouthpiece
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia
AFM

Wildman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 513

Wildman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 513

Trptbenge · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:11 am Post subject:

I believe over the years that Bach has had periods were the consistency was questionable. However, the horns I have tried over the past couple of years have been very good. I believe that Yamaha's overall quality is superior to Bachs but they are not immune to problems. A couple of years ago a local music store, and Yamaha dealer, had a shipment of Xenos recalled by Yamaha because of valve fit issues. the interesting thing about this incident that it was Yamaha that discovered the problem and took action with all the horns in the production run. I am not convinced that Bach would be as proactive.

Mike

ken_fung · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:22 am Post subject:

Perhaps I should say build quality can affect the playing quality of a horn but it is not the only factor. Some well-built horns do not play well and some sloppily built horns can play good. There are some other factors besides.

Yamaha is famous for their consistency but I personally do not care for them until the 9445CHS. All these years Bach horns have worked well for me despite the many flaws. I hate to say this but the Bach QC is really horrible. (Check my website: http://homepage.mac.com/fkm/hornproject/project1.html) Yet, you may still be able to find a nice playing one. Not too long ago, a student of mine purchased a new Bach Strad, it has several flaws but it still play pretty well! I guess the best strategy would be 'just play, don't look"!

_________________
Greetings from Hong Kong,
Ken

https://www.facebook.com/hkvmc.hk/

plankowner110 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3621

Rich G · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:11 am Post subject:

miles52245 · Regular Member Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 42

His response is the crock. They didn't used to make them with Chinese parts before. If they are still made the same way as always; how come no more factory tours? Yamahas are MUCH, MUCH, more consistent. What a bunch of BS from KS. Either that or he is completely ignorant.

Wildman....it is insensitive and judgemental remarks like this one that drive GREAT players like Karl Sievers away from a board like this! Straighten up please!

ken_fung

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:14 am Post subject:

Karl Sievers is a Bach/Selmer performing artist, and his website is hosted by the Selmer Company, I believe. Of course he is going to tell you that the Bach trumpets coming out of the factory now days are better and more consistent than ever before. He is only stating his professional opinion. It does not have to be taken as gospel.

LittleRusty · Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:25 am Post subject:

Come guys, use your reasoning capabilities.

Not giving tours of factories does not equate to building in China or coverups.

It probably means that they cannot afford to have personnel to conduct the tours, loss of productivty as the tour passes and are unwilling to pay the insurance liability costs.

Read the post by Brett Getzen in the other Bach thread and you will find he states some of these reasons for Getzen doing only limited tours.

I personally hate it when our sales staff brings in customers to look at the caged animals in the zoo. OK, engineers in their cubicles.

Perhaps the craftsmen simply don't want to be distracted?

plankowner110 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3621

What I wrote about B and C stock instruments is absolutely true for some (Edit: deleted the word "all") high production manufactures. I worked in music retail 25 years ago and we often bought "blems" (horns with some kind of imperfection such as acid leak stains under the finish, deep scratches, messy solders, or crooked braces, water keys, fingerhooks, etc.) These imperfections did not affect the playablility of the instrument, only the appearance. Retail dealers periodically receive lists of such "specials" from the manufacturers. It also helps the retailer to know someone inside the company to tip them off to some great buys. I won't say which manufacturers we used to get these deals from, other than to say it was not Getzen. (edit)

The corporate reps will deny this, of course, saying that all instruments leaving their factory are perfect, but this is not true. You can't mass produce trumpets and other instruments in a big factory without little production "goofs" here and there. This in itself is not an indication of slipping quality control, because they probably make hundreds of perfect instruments to every one "oops" model.

I bought a new furnace last year that was a scratch & dent unit from my trusted neighbor who owns a heating and cooling company. There is nothing wrong with it except a tiny dent in the side sheet metal and he saved me many hundreds of dollars. Manufacturers of every imaginable product offer blems on the marketplace. Your local hospital might even own a scratch & dent MRI!!