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Thinking Rhythm vs. Feeling Rhythm



 
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tknowlton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:25 am    Post subject: Thinking Rhythm vs. Feeling Rhythm Reply with quote

This is something I have been thinking about for a long time. Here is some of the background:

* I taught high school band for two years. I taught a percussion class where one of the things that I required them to do was to perform a set of rhythms (a rhythm sheet) at a satisfactory level. No matter how much desire some students had, no matter how well they could count the correct syllables, no matter how much I worked with them, they could not perform them satisforily. Technique was not the issue here. The problem was that the rhythm was never internalized.

* I have a trumpet student I have been working with for a little over a year. He has taken piano lessons for many years. As such, he has been drilled for years on his ability to count rhythm with syllables. He does it really well. I recently started him on some simple jazz rhythm studies. At first he just fell apart. He couldn't feel the rhythms and since they are swung, his regimental piano counting approach doesn't work. It has been fascinating to watch him work through this. As he has worked to move his body with the beat (feet tapping etc) and to purposely forget about strict counting -- his rhythm has improved remarkably. He is playing with much greater feel.

* A different trumpet student with a high capacity for learning complex rhythms is also (as his mom tells me) one who dances and moves to music at home all the time.

SO...

I am wondering out loud about what really is required for "good rhythm." Here are some questions to ponder and answer:

    1) How important in rhythm performance is kinesthetics (body movement - such as toe tapping, swaying, or whatever)?

    2) How important is an intellectual understanding of the rhythm - where the notes fall in relation to each beat etc.?

    3) Can good rhythm be taught beginning as an adult? OR must good rhythm be a result of some experiences one has as a child? OR, how much is inborn?

    4) What can trumpet teachers do to facilitate better rhythmic understanding and performance?

I listen to your answers. Thanks,
Tyler
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Gene
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent subject Tyler!

For me the 'timing' of your post is almost spooky. As a 55 year old coming back player rhythm is an issue. I am able to count the notes in the beat to the correct rhythm much better than my execution of the that count with the proper rhythm on the horn. Frustrating!!!

Once I 'feel' the rhythm the execution becomes better. It is like I can count or play but not both at the same time as I get mentally hung up on the count. Sight reading an unfamilar piece is very difficult for me. I most always tap my foot but if I consciously start processing the toe tapping and breaking down the beat on the printed page the playing is lost.... My teacher and her husband both teach mostly adolescents and both say the proper rhythm is their biggest challenge.

Anxious to see responses to your post.

Thanks
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Derek Reaban
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyler,

Great topic! For years I would work on all of my literature with a metronome. With the metronome on, my time and rhythmic integrity was always VERY good. But the second that I turned off the metronome, the pulse was gone, and while I was “close” to being precise, I always had the tendency to “crush” rhythms, stylize passages, and lose time without really being aware of it. It was extremely frustrating for me because I had really put in my time (years) with the metronome and it never seemed to get me to a point where this pulse was internalized.

Since I was not a music-major in school, I had always felt that I was missing some basic fundamentals that other players just naturally possessed. Then someone suggested to me that I should investigate a book entitled “Rhythmic Training” by Robert Starer. In the book he states that, “The ability to transform visual symbols of rhythmic notation into time-dividing sounds is an acquired skill. It is preferable for the student to produce the pulse himself (tapping, conducting, etc).” How fantastic was it for me when I discovered that internalizing a pulse is a learned skill and not just something that you are born with!

Click on the link in the above paragraph to read more!
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing in small combos this comes up often. Usually it's guitar players that have never come across the concept of counting, and when they can't get a rhythm by feel refuse to count it out. This has always been my source of greatest frustration. I should start a small combo w/ NO guitar player!

As a lead player, I never found it impossible to get the section (at any level) to feel the lines w/ me, but they were willing to listen to me play it.

Wasn't it Basie's band where many of the guys couldn't read? I always wanted to excel at both legit and jazz improv, but now understand why most cats specialize in one or the other. Makes HS and lower teaching tough, but I always advocate availing yourself of every resource possible.

Ray
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J.B.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to think rhythmic reading is more intellectual. It becomes so ingrained in good players that it does become a kind of feel - they don't have to think about it. But that comes from reading a million pieces and being screamed at by a million conductors. Jazz reading especially is all about identifying figures and constantly knowing where 1 and 3 (or 2 and 4) are.

Sight-reading rhythms while singing or tapping (or any other method of externalization) is great, because it removes the elements of pitch and finger coordination and allows you to focus a little more.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best way to get a guitar player to play quieter is to put a sheet of music in front of him.

Rhythms are read the same as pitches. We must see the sound on the page. We start by reading the sound of something simple then progress.
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tknowlton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek Reaban wrote:
In the book he states that, “The ability to transform visual symbols of rhythmic notation into time-dividing sounds is an acquired skill. It is preferable for the student to produce the pulse himself (tapping, conducting, etc).” How fantastic was it for me when I discovered that internalizing a pulse is a learned skill and not just something that you are born with!


Great! I have been finding that students who feel the pulse (as demonstrated by toe tapping or other body movement) have better rhythm than those that don't. Sometimes students will tell me that their band director tells them to only tap their feet during their first year or two of study because it looks amateurish as an older player (and that 120 kids in a band tapping their feet is like an extra bass drum player). I tell them that one can still "tap" his or her feet without really moving their foot noticeably. Anyone can just barely move their toes up and down and keep the beat and make it seem like their foot isn't really moving.

If I had the money (a grant or whatever) I would study rhythm in professional musicians (symphonic players, jazz players) and find out how many move to a pulse even in extremely subtle ways. I hypothesize that ALL do it!
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tknowlton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also glad, Derek, that you brought up the metronome. I also worked with the metronome for countless hours in high school and college. In my case I believe it did a few things:

    1) help to discipline my internal pulse so that I could maintain a more steady tempo.

    2) Gain speed in my technique as measured by incremental progress.

    3) Realize and fix whenever I wasn't really feeling the rhythm.


I would say that metronome training is an absolute essential for anyone who truly wants to master perfect rhythm. But, as you stated, that person must also have an internal pulse.
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tknowlton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Playing in small combos this comes up often. Usually it's guitar players that have never come across the concept of counting, and when they can't get a rhythm by feel refuse to count it out.


You perfectly make the point that one with good rhythm should be able to feel the rhythm as well as understand it intellectually. You have to have both.
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rabidkat
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so glad you are concerned with good rhythm. I play with so many good musicians that could be great if only their rhythm were better.

As primarily a drum student, of course I feel that rhythm can be taught. However, I do feel that some people are predisposed to internalizing it better.

My drum teacher always said, "the metronome is your friend." Some people think that a metronome inhibits you, but I think that it sets you free.

Rhythm is one thing that I can always fall back on in a solo. I may pick questionable notes, but my good rhythm makes anything sound halfway decent.

Enough of my rhythm rant...

-rabidkat
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jellyroll
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, opinionated and talkative but friendly newbie here, (but not new to the music world!)

I would say rhythm in jazz is the single biggest challenge among all professionals ( all instruments ) that I have encountered.
It is not unique to "you". I observe most musicians ( not unlike myself!) being fascinated with harmony, but not with the most primal thing rhythm.

My advice to all interested, in well, advice! is emphasize rhythm, not harmony so much. make that "perfect rhythm"- a growing ability to swing! Swing partly means to both feel a groove and communicate it to others.
An elegant approach to swing:
When you can play just a note or two, like Louie, you will "own that bandstand"- that is what I am suggesting. You need deep insight into music to do this.
That means basics.

And don't forget the primacy ( basics ) of Melody and the Expressive Tone that conveys it.
As you play the Melody, you gradually and gently learn to hear the harmony within it. If you force harmony over the melody ( that may be a necessary step at home, even with piano or software ), you don't allow what would come out naturally, if given a chance!

Try playing a melody slowly and training yourself to focus on what is implied, the unplayed chord tones!

"Night and Day" begins on the 5th degree of the key. Whether the 1st chord in Eb is Fm7b5 or BMaj7, one learns to hear the chord tones through repeated playing of melody, both on the horn, on a keyboard, or a program like Band in The Box, but don't overlook the receptive approach to the horn, sans overt harmonies!
In a very relaxed manner, play the melody with good time ( this improves with patient practice ). Gradually the time gets more secure and little ideas start to "seep out". A Swinging Rhythm, and a melody played with an expressive tone eventually bears the fruit of new little motifs that come out of that "garden" of solid time and the melody itself. Little melodic and rhythmic ideas just appear of themselves, really!
I am suggesting taking a step back, to make forward patient progress.
Pick a few tunes ( a blues, an I Got Rhythm, a pretty song ) from the 40's and work them!

Think of Louie playing just one tone and maybe a few quarter notes on that beautiful tone. Those few notes of his had ( and continue to have ) unmatched power. This is synergy, greater than the sum of its parts!

You want THAT kind of power, no?

What is your hierarchy or priority in trumpet playing?

Tone?
Melody- playing in a manner where the melody is evident ( L Tristano taught his students to learn Sinatra's "phrasing", believe it or not! )?
Counterpoint? It applies to us as well. More on this in another note.
Rhythm?
Harmony?

I nominate greater emphasis on rhythm and melody, with tone in there too. Harmony and tricks are overdone. Back to basics, the more complex will come, but you can't skip the vital step of swing and expert melodic interpretation, like Louie, Harry James, Teagarden, Getz, etc.

Recall how Louie plays a few medium slow quarter note downbeats; I am thinking that basically. Part of Louie's collosal strength is his mastery of basics like perfectly played downbeats! He has mastered it, and made, for instance, the downbeat "his own", if that makes any sense?

Later on, Dizzy and Bird played perfect upbeats and inside polymeters, but that is for later! Basic power is the focus right now.

Pro or semi pro, devote part of your practice time to this, and wonder no longer about its strength. Melody- Relaxed Swinging Rhythmics and Expressive Tone.
As one of my great teachers conveyed to me- there is "what you play" and "HOW you play what you play". How else could something as seemingly "unrevolutionary" as a quarter downbeat sound so great- innovative?
With respect to all
Jellyroll


Last edited by jellyroll on Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ustacouldplay
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The only count I know is Count Basie!" <-- Singer and dancer Dawn Hampton's response to a question from a student about the "count" for a dance move she was teaching.
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Joe Good
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I try to teach my students as many different approaches to rhythm as possible. The more DIFFERENT ways people learn something, the more useful it will be to them in performance.

I usually start with having them say basic fractions with me while tapping their left big toe.
1...2...3...4...
1.+.2.+.3.+.4.+.
1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a

I then teach them how to write in the count of the rhythms in their challenging music. We start at a slow tempo, tapping the left big toe, and making sure to have perfect accuracy. This is the hardest, but it is absolutely essential to learn this way.

The next technique I teach is using syllables. I learned this in College through a book that our theory teacher made us get. Basically, every common rhythm pattern has a word that corresponds to it.

Quarter note = Ta
two eighth notes = Ba-ker
one eighth note two sixteenth notes = Grass-hop-per
two sixteenth notes one eighth note = Te-le-phone
four sixteenth notes = pea-nut-but-ter
Dotted eighth sixteenth = Pas-ta (heavy on the italian accent here)
sixteenth Dotted eighth = Ta-ble
eighth note triplet = Beet-hov-en

The beauty of this is that there is exactly one word per beat. I've found that almost invariably, students learn the fastest this way, and can memorize rhythm test charts the most accurately using it. Sadly, I lost the book in a fire, and do not recall it's title/author. Anyone know this book?

For teaching swung eighth notes, I do something similar to the speech cues. First, I teach the students how to identify notes that are ON the beat from those OFF the beat (particularly synchopation). For the notes ON the beat we mark a "D" for those off the beat we use a "B". I then have the student tap their toe again and say Doo-Ba Doo-Ba Doo-Ba Doo-Ba 1...2...3...4... Doo-Ba Doo-Ba Doo-Ba Doo-Ba 1...2...3...4... until they are good at it. This then leads us into speaking through the rhythms of whatever Jazz chart they couldn't comprehend before. I also teach them how to recognize the sound of synchopation, and the look of it, so it doesn't throw them off (that's the first big trap that gets people in Jazz). I can then use this same technique for them to learn synchopation in non-swung music by squaring up the Do-Ba into even eighths.

And of course, there's the learning by rote. If a student simply is NOT getting the rhythm due to some mental block, I make them turn around, and echo back the rhythm that I play, until we've broken the bad habit.

There is no one thing that will fix rhythm. It is a combination of mathematical and creative solutions that makes for a solid rhythmic education.
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iambrassman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked Joe Good's post. I'm a "1 e & a, 2 e & a" guy. In college my sheet music was riddled with arrows pointint up or down (on beat, or on the "and") and with 'e' or 'a' above the figures. I found that after I woodshedded the figures for a while I stopped actually reading the rythm and had simply memorized the phrasing... example:

"1 3 & 4 &, & & &4e&a,1------" I think you can make sense of that.

I don't know if that counts as 'feeling the rythm' -- I know I don't have a good sense for complicated figures without a lot of work, so I have always taken a lot of time in 'getting those under my fingers and under my toes'. I have known folks that seem to just feel where the musical rythm is headed and gave me bewildered looks as I marked up my sheet music.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think rhythm is something you either have or don't have. I also think that people can learn to subdivide a musical pulse like mathematics, without actually having rhythm. But I don't think someone can just learn rhythm. You have to have it, like a sense of color, or being good with figures, or athletic coordination. Would you say that any person can become an Olympic athlete (whatever sport) if they only practice hard enough? And if they fail to make it to the Olympics, it's because they didn't work hard enough? I say a person has an inborn aptitude that can then be developed.
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