New Toy

[Ben17]

you say you don't buy the argument that cd's cost too much, well I certainly do. Try being fifteen, that age was my height of downloading, and having no job, no income, except for allowance, and wanting to practice music with great artists. I purchased kind of blue, loved it, so I bought a miles davis book with solo transcriptions. But guess what? there were about ten other songs from various recordings I didn't have. So I have two choices? Save up to purchase six new cd's ( $14 x 6 ) and then listen so I can hear a track basically off of each of them. Or I could just download the tracks I don't have because I don't have any money and I'd like to practice and hear awesome recordings. CD's are way too expensive for a kid! Ten bucks sounds fair for a cd. I personally think $8 is rediclous for a movie, but I go to those every weekend now that I have a job. And just for any information, downloading various trumpet recordings has lead me to discover dozens of artists I would have never heard of, and now I have tons of Cd's because frankly, nobody on limewire cares about Wayne Bergeron, they just want their Britney Spears.

[trumpetmike]

Wait until you have produced some CDs and find that people are listening to pirated copies (be it copied CDs or downloaded), rather than purchasing copies that would actually help you pay for making the recording.
If you still have the same viewpoint then, I would be surprised.

The big names are a different story (you mentioned Britney) - the money is going primarily to the record companies, personally I doubt that many (if any) trumpeters would find themselves in the same situation.

[cjdjazztpt]

[icebraker613]

[Tom LeCompte]

I remember being 15. Back then, the average cost of records (what we used before CD's) was about $8. Adjsuted for inflation, that's $14.20. The average cost of a CD today is $13. So it's about the same, and if anything, the price has come down a notch.

What I did to support my music habit was to get a job. Lots of little jobs, actually. Not all of them were fun, and they took a chunk of time out of my schedule - which put a cramp in my social life, but it's all about setting priorities.

What I did not do was to rip off the music I wanted and try and justify it to myself as being too expensive. That's resorting to thievery.

It's all about character, and the kind of person you want to become.

[LittleRusty]

So by the reasoning above it should be OK to walk into a music store and take a CD or two, since it's for educational purposes, you can't afford it, the record companies make too much and the artists surely won't mind.

If you are so sure that the artist won't mind why don't you go to the artist's website and download it? Perhaps they don't have websites for one to do this because they do mind.

Just admit it, if you take something that legally belongs to someone else you are a thief. You are doing it because you want to, not because of some social injustice.

I really don't care if anyone does this, but don't try to make this into a noble act similar to Robin Hood curing the world's injustices.

[Ben17]

o god, give me a break. Jeez don't you guys know it's called "file sharing". I am just borrowing a cd from a 'friend'. No just kidding. But for all of those who make their living by making trumpet music; nobody on limewire cares about you. Nobody on Kazaa, or Morpheus, or Limewire has a Wayne Bergeron recording. I support small musicians by buying their cd's, and I even support all of my favorite bands, but downloading has opened new doors to many out there who are learning of bands they never would have come in contact with. For instance, I heard of this great band called Bloc Party from the UK. Well, I downloaded a few of their tracks, loved it, so I went out and bought the cd.

[LittleRusty]

So stealing in this case is just an advertising expense, that the anyone can inflict on the legal owner of the music?

Give me a break, it is stealing.

If you don't like how the laws work get them changed.

[Ben17]

No, I'm just saying it doesn't hurt anyone who cares. Sure it's illegal, but I also see cops who drive ten miles an hour over the speed limit just because. I download a bit because it's convient and free, illegal, but free. I am not a downloading guru who downloads cd's and movies, but I certainly have a few tracks from various cd's that I just don't care to purchase, and that's that. If I want more than three tracks on a cd I'll buy it, but if I want Brittney's new single because it's unfortunately catchy, you bet I'll download it. I wouldn't get caught dead purchasing that crap.

[LittleRusty]

Actually, until you ask the producer, copyright holder and the artist you cannot tell if anyone cares. Until that point it is just your opinion.

[FatPauly]

This is a very tough issue, no doubt, but to say it doesn't hurt anyone who cares is inaccurate. Everyone who benefits from the sale of a CD cares. Maybe not if just 1 or 10 or 100 people pinch a copy from wherever, but the power of distribution networks has show that potentially hundreds of thousands of people can access free copies of a product they would normally have to pay for.

Here's another analogy to downloading music that gets to the core truth. Your skills as a trumpeter have reached the level where you are now the leader of a band playing gigs for the gate. You get $5 for every person who comes into the establishment. An individual sneaks past the gate and comes in to hear your band for free. You see this but say to yourself, "It's just $5, which I have to split between me and the other 4 in the band, so I am only out a buck. No big deal."

Then 10 other people see this guy slip past the gate and they do the same thing. In fact they end up doing it every night that you play this gig. Would this bother you? Afterall, they could just stand out in the street and listen to your music for free, though it might not sound as good as being right there in the club.

Is this different than downloading music?

For my part, I too am guilty of downloading, though I can say for a fact that most of the stuff I have d/l'ed has either been music I already own but am to lazy to rip, or groups that I am curious about. In the latter category, if I am sufficiently impressed, I end up buying the CD.

[ustacouldplay]

I don't feel bad when I download, or otherwise obtain, a bootleg copy of recorded music. Screwing the musicians? Perhaps I am but they already got screwed long ago...by recorded music no less.

Remember that "way back in the day", when people wanted to hear music they went to hear live music. Music was a local thing and thousands upon thousands all over put food on the table by playing music. No-one got rich but it payed the bills. Then the rules changed.

The record companies figured out how to bottle the music and market it on a national level. Suddenly, people didn't need the local musicians. They had radio and records (then tapes and cd's and then i-tunes, etc...). 99.44% of the musicians got screwed to the point of not even being able to make a living at their craft while the .54% lucky ones made all of the money (90%+ of which was gobbled up by "the system" but the musicians still make mad loot.) People bemoaned recordings for a while and cried for local musicians but eventually, most people (musicians, listeners, record execs, everyone) accepted the new system and figured out how to live within it. Most musicians got real jobs.

Well, now the rules are changing again, like it or not. Someone is going to get screwed, again. Its part of "change". Hopefully the musicians and composers and such, the people who actually MAKE music, will figure out a way to get a larger piece of the pie. Maybe they won't. But it seems obvious to me that the group that is going to get screwed the most is the group that is slowest to adapt to the changing environment.

Instead of wasting time and energy bemoaning the loss of the "old new way" of doing things, musicians, writers, composers, etc... need to be searching hard for a way to leverage their skills in the emerging system.

Because the old way is already dead...y'all just doesn't know it yet.
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John Ford's next stop:

[Ben17]

well the analogy about the band, I was in a band for three years. I actually have played guitar since I was five, my dad was a semi-pro guitarist, and now I'm almost eighteen so you do the math, but it's a quite a few years. A friend of the band's, he belongs to my church, has a recording studio in his home, so as a band we paid and recorded there for about four months. We did a few concerts at some local venues, mostly this lazer tag place near by that used to do friday night concerts. We got dozens of blank cd's, slapped on some labels and made a cover, and that was that. We sold the cd at our concerts for $8. I made about a hundred bucks over about a year of doing that. But basically that money went towards shirts and the unfortunate amount of repairs to my amp. But basically I could care less about money. I wanted people to know about us. The more people at my HS came to my concert, the happier I was. I wanted people to like us. I felt I had something to say through my music, well through my guitar, I didn't sing because that would be a catastrophe. Today I record little jazz tracks for my friends and girl friend, with an old friend of mine. I usually cover guitar, trumpet, bass, drums (if needed though I suck) and she helps me in the booth, and sometimes sings. That's about it though. I was never in this for money, and I'm sorry this (downloading) hurts those that are.

[LittleRusty]

Ben,

I understand your point, and as an artist with original songs, this is a perfect use for this type of interface.

One thing you do need to consider is that if you are doing covers of other artists work you need to get permission and pay royalties.

I record for our local elementary school's choir and we end up paying royalties for each song based on the number of copies sold.

[ustacouldplay]

[Ben17]

o yeah, little misunderstanding here, I didn't cover any tracks, when I said cover, I meant like I cover the playing of the instruments needed. All of my tracks and tracks done with the band were original

[Tom LeCompte]

[LittleRusty]

[ustacouldplay]

Nope, it's not up to the criminal to determine what is a crime and I never said I wasn't committing a crime. I said the crime was so statistically insignificant that I DON'T CARE that I'm committing it. To me, it's in the same class as speeding or "bowing" at a stop sign or not walking back inside the store after realizing the teller gave you $1 too much; It's illegal but from my perspective, noone's really getting hurt so I don't lose sleep over it. Actually... I'd feel bad about the teller and might take the dollar back. I have before. (but I've kept it before, too )

By the way, my definition of theft is the same one I've been carrying in my head since attending Indiana State police summer camp in 7th grade. I think my definition is more precise and less emotional but use what you want.
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John Ford's next stop:

[LittleRusty]

You are correct, you didn't say it wasn't a crime. Sorry I missed that.

Perhaps your definition is less emotional than mine, but some millions of others can look mine up in the dictionary, which I quoted illegally.