Shorter valve strokes

the chief · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:56 pm Post subject: Shorter valve strokes

I know the V1 has them, but I'm not a fan of that horn. I noticed that Wayne Bergeron's horn also has shorter valve strokes.

Is this a rare technique? Has it been done on any other horns? I personally think it's a good idea.
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Bill Bryant · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject:

Some horns only appear to have short strokes, either by the optical illusion caused by finger buttons with bigger diameters or by metal that comes up higher than the spot where the button goes down to. I researched this earlier and it turned out that most makes have very similar stroke length.

Early Benge instruments had a longer stroke than most (especially the CG model) and a few companies had a slightly shorter stroke, but none can escape what happens when you make it seriously shorter while keeping the piston the same diameter: port tubing interference and distortion. Only one company I know of addresses the issue by making the piston diameter larger. I think it's called Wedgewood, or something like that.

Bill Bryant · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject:

I had a Kanstul 1600 in my home last month for several days and I didn't notice a shorter stroke. I did notice wide diameter finger buttons. Maybe your horn was different.

Bill Bryant · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:13 pm Post subject:

I just looked at the pics on the Wild Thing website and this horn appears to be built around a standard Kanstul valve cluster. I don't see a short throw here at all.

the chief · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject:

Yeah I agree the standard 1600 doesn't have them, but I can see that Wayne's definately does. There's a video of him playing with the Big Phat Band, and the strokes are very short, even when compared to a V1.
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Bill Bryant · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject:

Reference this and tell me what a Vintage One's stroke is:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30655&highlight=valve+stroke

I don't think I have it on the list of horns I've measured up to now.

the chief · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject:

I haven't played most of those horns Bill, but the V1's strokes are definately shorter than normal.
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jsmn4vu · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject:

the chief · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:54 pm Post subject:

I don't know the technical details, but that makes sense to me John.
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TimBrown · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject:

Before I purchased my Kanstul CHI1070, I played a CHI1001. It definitely had shorter valve throws. My 1070 does not.

Tim
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plankowner110 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620

The piston stroke on my 60s Conn 38B and 8B was shorter than other trumpets. I think Conn accomplished this because the bore was smaller (.438) and they designed the ports closer together.
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Tempo-rary · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 232

NMex · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:15 am Post subject:

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

All this talk about short valve strokes.... has anyone actually MEASURED to see what the valve stroke is? Or how (in)significant it can be?

It's easy... just stand a machinists rule vertically above a valve and note the measurement "valve up" and "valve down" (measuring at the edge of the valve button) and take the difference. No need to even pull the valve out of the casing.

You will be amazed, possibly even shocked at how small the difference can be.

I measured a Bauerfine valve block and a Schilke. They differ by 0.5 mm. That's two one-hundredths of an inch. Kind of "insignificant" I'd say.

jsmn4vu · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:44 am Post subject:

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

"valve up - valve down" = valve stroke.

Richie, you mentioned the short valve stroke on Yamaha and your Conn. What where the physical measurements?

I got Bauerfine at 14.5 mm and Schilke at 15.0. I think I remember my Eterna 800 cornet as being 15.5 but I'd have to go home and recheck them to be certain.

jsmn4vu · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:19 am Post subject:

Just measured the stroke on a Kanstul ZKT1500 with a machinist's dial gauge. It's
.608 in.
or
15.443 mm
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LittleRusty · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:23 am Post subject:

jsmn4vu · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:37 am Post subject:

LittleRusty · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:02 am Post subject:

Ah, the vertically aligned ports are the intake for either the extended tubing or the pass-through port, where the air is diverted to.

Yes, that would explain your point.

Sorry, I knew I was missing something, I should have thought of that.