The art of soldering

cujazztrpt · Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:41 am Post subject: The art of soldering

About 5 years ago at the Warburton shop Terry showed me how to solder trumpet parts. Well got the tools now but had fogotten my lesson from Mr. Warburton,,,could somebody here please refresh me???
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Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:45 am Post subject:

I don't know about trumpet soldering.

For general electrical circuit and plumbing soldering (done both), one of th etricks is to heat the wire/pipes, and let the solder flow into them rather than force the flow. That way you get a smooth, even joint. You must also avoid excess solder, which can blob up in or out of the joint. Finally, moving a joint before it has sufficiently cooled (usually a second or two for wires, several plus for pipes) will cause the solder to "crystallize" and not form a good bond ("cold solder joint"). This is a weaker joining, and can often be known because the solder will look motley, "fuzzy", or like a brushed/shotblasted finish instead of shiny. Clamps, jigs, and other holders make life much easier (holdig hot piping is just not that fun, gloves or no -- the heat always seems to reach through my gloves just before the jont has cooled...)

Don't breath the fumes. Nasty stuff.

We used to use rosin-core for wires and acid-core for plumbing. I'm not sure what trumpet makers use (but there are several on TH, so we'll both find out!)

It's an art which takes much practice to do well. Try getting some scrap stock from a plumber or hardware store to practice on. Practice on your Amati before your Strad. For that matter, you could buy one of those Chinese or Indian lamp-quality trumpets from eBay to play with.

HTH - Don
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cujazztrpt · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 9:56 am Post subject:

Well, just did a solder job about an hour ago. Just something basic like attaching a slide saddle in a trumpet. I got the saddle from a Taiwanese made trumpet that somebody gave me. It's not very pretty but maybe after some practice it'll get better. Just saved me $10 and a weeks wait. Right now im trying to disassemble this horn, the leapipe seems to be really hard to take off.
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silverstar · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject:

What ever you do...don't use a propane torch...

It burns the finish....

Lara

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Dan O'Donnell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 2287

You might want to contact Jason Harrelson who does incredible modifications on horns. (See some of his modifications in the TH Marketplace or Ebay)

He is an expert in disassembling and soldering trumpet parts amongst many other things and is now building his own line of horns.

He is a very nice person, does incredible work on trumpets and he is a TH member who graciously gives great advice to beginner "horn modifiers".

You can look him up on TH and send him questions through E-Mail.

He is currently modifying one of my horns (I am one of his clients...WOW that has a nice ring to it!!!) and he has patiently answered many many many of my questions.
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cujazztrpt · Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject:

Thanks everybody, I think im using butane. It's the disposable type (cheap) but im just practicing. I still burn the finish (sometimes) but looks doesn't bother me. But I will be getting me a pro level torch soon from votaw tools. I will be setting up a small work bench so I can concentrate more.

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JasonHarrelson · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 4:34 am Post subject:

Dan tipped me off on this thread and said you'd like a little soldering advice.

I recommend all beginners start with a propane torch. I have used propane torches for 10+ years.

Don's advice is a good starting point. Always heat the joint to the melting temp of the solder before touching the solder to the joint. Hold the trumpet on some kind of stand...I use a jig that I made. My jig allows me to place the trumpet over an aluminum rod through the 2nd valve. I can swivel the trumpet to any angle for intricate work. Do not make your jig from wood, it will burn.

Wear a respirator, even if you have ventilation. I have a professional exhaust hood and still use my respirator every time the torch is lit. I have had inhalation poisoning many times and it can be deadly. At the very least, one breath of flux fumes will put you down for a whole day.

Control the flame. Adjust the flame so it is somewhere between a candle and blazing. It will take time and a little experimenting to get the flame just right. If the flame is too hot, you will loosen joints you didn't mean to and have to start over. If it is too low, you will have difficulty soldering and joints may be weak and eventually break. In general, the more mass, the more heat is needed. Tubing will heat up very quickly even with a low flame. However, adding thicker, heavier parts may take more heat.

Clean all parts to be soldered. I use rotary tools to achieve a smooth clean finish on all parts to be soldered. This is very important...if the parts aren't clean, you'll get leaks and encounter problems in fit and finish. Use flux to aid in solder flow. Flux is acid, which becomes a poisonous gas when heated. Treat flux like the plague! RESPIRATOR, NITRILE GLOVES, DO NOT USE IN THE HOUSE unless you are venting outside with a dedicated ventilation system. I'm not kidding...you could kill your dog or small children over time from flux fumes.

I do not use welders gloves, just nitrile gloves. This can result in burns if you're not careful, but dealing with difficult joints is easier when you can use your hands. Wear eye safety. Solder joints will randomly spurt out molten metal when you least expect it. Don't lose your vision over a hobby.

Allow all parts to cool for at least 30 seconds before moving anything. If your joints require more time, then your torch is way too hot!

I recommend buying soft, thin instrument solder. If you use the 1/8" Oatey solder from the plumbing dept, you'll run into a lot of unnecessary trouble. Call Ferree's and buy at least two types of solder. You can buy Oatey Red flux at the hardware store (in the red and white little container).

Good luck...let me know if you have any specific questions.

Jason Harrelson
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www.whyharrelson.com

cujazztrpt · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 4:42 am Post subject:

Many thanks Mr. Harrelson! I did it in the kitchen last night, and yes some sodder got in my face and my hands and too much heat made the saddle to come off again and I had to redo everything...burnt my fingers too..I guess I need to handle my flux more carefully. Not sure what im using right now coz everything is in Japanese,,(been here in Japan for 4 years now) Again many thanks!

JasonHarrelson · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 4:45 am Post subject:

Call Ferree's Tools (look them up on the internet) and order two different sizes of soldering clips for trumpet and some good solder. You can buy all of this for around $20. Practice outside on calm days until you can set up an adequate (preferably enclosed) soldering station.

Jason Harrelson
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www.whyharrelson.com

Dan O'Donnell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 2287

Jason,

Your involvement, input and time spent helping people on TH shows your both your professionalism and great character!!!
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God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

Felix c · Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject:

Thanks Mr. Harrelson:
Last week I buy at ebay a small torch that works with Mapp and Oxigen. It still has not arrive. Im thinking to solder some srap copper plumbing parts and next with more experience un brace some taiwan parts horn. I have a Bundy trumpet that I like to convert to a C mode with a Bach 25a Leadpipe and a 229 Bell. The problem its to cut correctly the 3 slides. All your advise has been extremely useful and important.
Thanks anbd continues to create your Gemm Trumpets
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jsmn4vu · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 4:00 am Post subject:

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:53 am Post subject:

Hmmm... I've heard of using MAPP torches for welding and cutting, but not for soldering? The gas is also usually more expensive than propane. Like jsmn4vu said, be careful!

Jason's post was great, of course, and goes far beyond my meager start (too long since I've been on the bench, I guess). I'd like to echo his comment about eye protection -- the flux can sizzle and shoot little solder pellets everywhere. Pick up a pair of protective eye shields, preferably the wrap around style. Don't count on eyeglasses; solder can ruin eyeglasses, and little blobs of hot solder have a way of finding their way around normal glasses.

HTH - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Felix c · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 9:13 am Post subject:

Well you make me to retthink again. Mapp its more powerful if propane makes well. I will change to propane (its cheaper).
Thanks & Blessings
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James B. Quick · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject:

How about the torch. the ones that are bought for sweating pipe are kind of big. How about a torch on a hose, are those easy to get? jbqd

rwbanks1962 · Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject:

FWIW, Feree's Tools also sells used soldering torches by National and other similar brands.
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MartinComittee · Veteran Member Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 165

send a mail to feree's tools!
they wil send you their 200pages catalog for free!!
(even to belgium!)
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bilboboone · Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject:

the little hand help disposable propane torches work well for soldering and are much cheaper than having to buy a tank and regulator and torch and tips and all that jazz.

I use acetylene torches at my work, but I'm not the one footing the bill.

Boone

musicalmason1 · Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject:

I work at an ace hardeware store, and they market a torch with a 5 foot hose that connects onto a regular plumbing propane tank. this is what I use for whatever soldering I do, I just put the tank in the vice so it doesnt fall off the bench and I solder away, the hose makes things very easy.

nacog · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 232

I have a soldering question for anyone that can answer. When I was in the Air Force fixing radios we used lead solder yet I have heard that instruments use silver solder. Do you use silver on some parts and lead on others? Is silver soldering any different than using lead? any help in clarifying this for me would be appreciated.