intonation

Babb9520 · Veteran Member Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 173

Hi guys. Ive been away from home for the summer playing in a camps festival orchestra. Last week we performed the suites from Prokofievs Romeo and Juliet. I had a great and played the piece fairly well. This next concert I'm playing principal on Dvorak 9. Lately, I've been having a bit of trouble. This started with us correcting in some sectionals some intonation problems. For a couple of days, our instructor was having us playing long tones and bending some pitches in tune!

This has thrown me quite off track. My tone isnt as resonant, my range isnt as great, and I really feel that I have tension problems. In the past couple days I've gotten back together some and I think I'll be ok. I just wanted to know some opinions on how to approach tuning, especially in ensembles. I suppose I need to get back to hearing the notes in tune before I play, and mainly listnening instead of trying to manipulate my my body to play in tune. Thanks for any suggestions!

Charlie Babb

razeontherock · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:26 am Post subject:

This very area is where Mr Adam's basic concepts helped me so much; then I looked and saw you posted on his forum!? I think you must already know what to do. Applying it in the ensemble situation is the challenge now ...

Billy B · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:32 am Post subject:

When you speak of bending pitches in tune, were you tuning to a sound or to a machine? Machines are great for fixed pitch instruments but usually worthless for us. (I have one that I use to settle arguments with) Playing with a great sound automatically takes care of a lot. It is very hard to hear if a bad sound is in tune or not. I suspect your instructor was trying to make you aware of in tune by having you play out of tune much the way a guitarist will tune by twisting knobs sharp then flat etc.. The problem with this is that it makes us play out of phase with the instrument which builds tension. There is also the possibility that something else is occuring at camp to throw you off base. There aren't any mouthpiece buzzers getting into your head are there? All in all it seems you have answered your own question with your last sentence. Where are you camping and what is your opinion of the camp?
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Bill Bergren

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject:

Charlie --

You wrote:

"I suppose I need to get back to hearing the notes in tune before I play, and mainly listnening instead of trying to manipulate my my body to play in tune."

That's exactly right. Bending notes into being in tune pretty much guarantees that those notes will not be centred and resonant. Hear the note where it needs to be, and play it there.
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Richard Sandals
NBO

popotrpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Mar 2005 Posts: 531

Bending notes can cause tension if you're doing it with your chops. When I've done lip bends (not often) I do it with my air. By bending the notes with my air it has helped me to find the point of best resonance of different notes. I also never bend notes to a tuner, that creates lots of problems. If you're not used to bending notes then it can really mess you up. I wouldn't do it. The trumpet coach should understand you're coming from a different angle and respect that. But don't totally ignore him either. Give it a shot for a bit and you may end up really liking the way you sound after it settles. Like others have said, don't manipulate your body. Do it with your air.
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DT

Bb-Bach 37
Piccolo-Scherzer 8111
Mouthpieces-Bach 1.5B, Purviance 8

swingintrpt · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject:

Some schools of teaching use lip bends to help players find the resonant center of the horn. I've used this with a number of students, and it is usually succesful. The one case where it wasn't, the student was bending eratically, clearly not listening to where the pitch was, or where the horn was resonating. After spending some time talking about the sensations he was supposed to be paying attention to, and playing a number of demonstrations, he finally got it, and ended up pulling his slide in alost a full inch.

I suspect that (and I could be waaaaay off base here) the instructor just sort of told you to start bending notes, and didn't explain what you were supposed to get out of it, so now you've confused your chops.

All this isn't really to help solve your problem, it seems like you've got that under control...It's just a little extra information to help you understand what the intentions of some of the lip bending excercises are, in case you decide later on that you might want to use them again (in case you buy a new horn, and want a quick way to learn the intonation tendencies, for instance).
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RJM
Examining the difference between
music and Music.

Babb9520 · Veteran Member Joined: 13 Mar 2004 Posts: 173

Haha... Billy, I'd say Im one of maybe two kids here who doesnt buzz their mouthpiece! I'm at the Boston University Tanglewood program. I do like this camp, mainly because the orchestra here is great and is giving me a lot of experience in being a musician. The instruction here isnt the best because theres no one formally giving lessons. I have only scheduled a couple lessons since Ive been here with a couple guys from Boston area and in the symphony.
Im sure I atleast gained one thing from those sectionals though. I can hear in tune much better. He was having us play in tune with a tuner before playing together in the section. To me atleast, it was a kind of uncomfortable thing to do because I never play with tuners like that. He had us "lip" some notes in tune. After this I could realize that I had sort of sub-counsicously lost my feel for the center of the horn. Yes this creates quite an undesirable sound. Thanks for your help! Next time I wont approach intonation that way.

Charlie Babb

Billy B · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:51 am Post subject:

A good way to sharpen your ears is to sit down at the piano and play chords. Match the pitch of the notes of the chord. Play in all ranges of the piano and transpose the octaves to the trumpet. (You need to be able to hear the bass as well as the piccolo). I find that it is much easier to tune to a Bb minor 7 chord than it is to just a single Bb. After all, we are tuning the chords when we perform. Singing intervals is also a good idea. Buy a pitch pipe and you can do this anywhere. I do it when driving.
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Bill Bergren

camelbrass · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:38 am Post subject:

Billy,

Please take this in the spirit it's intended. Your posts really add a lot..they are succinct, make perfect sense and obviously come from a wealth of experience. I keep learning and the more I learn the more sense they make.

Well done.

Regards,

Trevor

Billy B · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:37 am Post subject:

Trevor,

Mr. Adam tells us that the most important of our senses is common sense. Something I am afraid is a quite a premium in today's world and even more apparent on the TH. 99% of what I post is information that I have been given by Mr. Adam. I know many people believe in taking bits of information from many different sources and coming up with their own formula for brass playing. Very few have been successfull at this and they are the ones who become legendary teachers. For the huge majority of us it is infinitely better to be the student rather than the master. I don't mind posting here because this is merely a discussion amongst students. I know that Mr. Adam would never do this as he would consider it inappropriate for him to do so. I just hope that what I say is accurate as to Mr. Adam's teachings and that others (Pat) will step in if I get something wrong.
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Bill Bergren

swingintrpt · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:44 am Post subject:

Bill-

I've been thinking alot about your post (even before you posted it) and it's becoming more and more interesting to me. Are we all just going to follow exactly what one great teacher said until we reach the end of improvement? What if we can't get lessons with the founder of our particular school? And how much, if any, is it appropriate to borrow...

Looking at this, it sort of sounds like I'm being a dip, but I'm not. It's really a question that's been on my mind for a few weeks. Your thoughts (via forum or PM) would be appreciated.
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RJM
Examining the difference between
music and Music.

Billy B · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:

Ryan,

I honestly do not believe there is an end to improvement. This is a particularly difficult concept for those so steeped in Western thought. We go to school, we learn the material, pass the test and get a degree. Suddenly we are a master because the piece of paper says so. I don't believe it works that way. Your second question is much more difficult. In the case of Mr. Adam, he has taught a few who I would consider to be very good at teaching his approach. In your area, Charly Davis comes to mind. The hard truth is that when Mr. Adam is gone, there is no one to replace him. Your third question has no answer. Don Jacoby was one of those great teachers who borrowed from different sources. He took lessons with Adam at one time and had a great deal of respect for him. But those guys are few and far between. Not only are they identified by the quality of their students, but by their humbleness. Beware of those who talk mainly of themselves.
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Bill Bergren