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Bronze Horns?


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Acolyte
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject: Bronze Horns? Reply with quote

I see that horns are made from both copper and brass (an alloy of copper and zinc.) I also know that bronze (an alloy of copper and tin) bells (as in church bells) have far better mustical characteristics than brass bells.

Does anyone make a trumpet out of bronze or is the material too difficult and/or expensive to fabricate? Would there be any benefit to a bronze horn or at least a bronze bell (as in trumpet horn?) Thanks.
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Tootsall
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that Kanstul can (and has done) provide bronze bells, as can a couple of other makers. Whether or not bronze has "better accoustical characteristics" has to be for the listener to determine.
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rwingman97
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that Marcinkiewicz offers a bronze bell as an option on his horns, check out the website:
http://www.marcinkiewicz.com/main.htm
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sound-wise, how would a bronze bell compare to a copper bell?
I note the Kanstul 1500a (very dark tone) has a bronze bell, not copper, which seems strange to me. I thought copper was as dark as it got, but myabe not?
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topo3man
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are bronze bells as stated above. Bauerfiend also makes a bronze valve section. I know this is available on one of the Stage 1 trumpets (the New York model) offered by NYTC.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Sound-wise, how would a bronze bell compare to a copper bell?
I note the Kanstul 1500a (very dark tone) has a bronze bell, not copper, which seems strange to me. I thought copper was as dark as it got, but myabe not?


Copper bells, in general, are considered darker than bronze bells. They are also softer and easier to dent.
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Acolyte
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass.


Your "google" is wrong. Bronze is an alloy of copper and TIN. Brass is an alloy of copper and ZINC.

From a manufacturing standpoint (at least outside of horns), bronze is far more expensive than brass.
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Acolyte
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass.


Bronze must cantain tin or metallurgically it's not bronze.
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Acolyte
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that bronze bells (as in church bells) have wonderful musical characteristics, while brass bells do not. They sound cheap. Very cheap. Copper bells (the few that I have actually heard) sound dead.

It's interesting to hear that some horn bells are made out of bronze.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acolyte wrote:
nieuwguyski wrote:
I believe bronze trumpet bells are made out of "commercial bronze" -- a brass alloy that contains no tin. A google reveals that commercial bronze is 90% copper, 10% zinc -- the same proportions typically attributed to red brass.


Your "google" is wrong. Bronze is an alloy of copper and TIN. Brass is an alloy of copper and ZINC.

From a manufacturing standpoint (at least outside of horns), bronze is far more expensive than brass.


Why do people come on this forum, which is intended to share information, to bash people when they don't know what they're talking about?

HE'S NOT WRONG. Copper alloys, commercial bronze 220 (notice the absense of tin), 90% copper, 10% zinc. http://www.suppliersonline.com/Research/Property/result.asp?FamilyID=6&MetalID=1257&Chemical=1&Physical=1&Mechanical=1

Sheesh.
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edited for inappropriate content by Moderators.
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study888
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Bronze Horns Reply with quote

Hello. I may be wrong. Some of the Olds owners can correct. But I believe the later 1960's Olds Special Trumpet and Cornets has about 1/3 third of bell in Bronze. I own a Cornet of this type. The rest of bell appears to be Nickel silver. As it is white looking inside of bell. But the bell is a Bronze looking. And the whole instrument is tri- colored. With a Sparx 4B m.p. gives off a nice mellow to bright sound. Then the older Studio had the 1/3 nickel spun bell and brass and nickel silver trim etc. The newer name for such. May be rose brass. But it does have more of a bronze sheen than cooper. What ever it may be. Missed out on a Olds Special trumpet on e-bay like new. Close to same year and make as my cornet. It sold for $300.00 plus shipping. The Olds Special, Studio, and Recording's and Supers in good condition have been selling high on e-bay this month. Any how the Olds Special tri-color model is the only horn I have seen advertised as having bronze in the metal mix. Later
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m4
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don`t know if this helps or is germane to the thread or discussion, but Blackburn offers a bell that he calls Ambronze. You can see his website for more details. m4
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plp
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps it has to do with the way copper and bronze resonate differently. Bronze may just do better being played as a percussion instrument compared to brass, while it may not resonate as well as brass when the impetus is air vibration.
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Acolyte
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. They are not one in the same, no matter what your less than authoritative source suggests. Try picking-up a text on metallurgy before commenting on this issue next time.

Edited for content by Moderators.
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jsmn4vu
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's try to maintain at least an outward appearance of decorum...

Acolyte to "Liberty Lips" wrote:
Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin

Yes.
Quote:
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.

Yes.
Quote:
They are not one in the same, no matter what your less than authoritative source suggests.

The metal called commercial bronze by the trade contains no tin. (As long as we're being picky, the expression is "one and the same.")
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Acolyte
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jsmn4vu wrote:
Let's try to maintain at least an outward appearance of decorum...

Acolyte to "Liberty Lips" wrote:
Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin

Yes.
Quote:
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.

Yes.
Quote:
They are not one in the same, no matter what your less than authoritative source suggests.

The metal called commercial bronze by the trade contains no tin. (As long as we're being picky, the expression is "one and the same.")


Correct. There might indeed be some sloppy slang usage within the trade of referring to brass as "commerical bronze" but that dosen't make the material bronze. It's still brass. This isn't a matter of conjecture, tradition or semantics -- it's a matter of metallurgy.

Earlier you pointed another example of the use of sloppy slang. You noted the term "lacquer" is still used to define what are actually enamel and epoxy finishes and not lacquer.

I choose the facts over sloppy slang anytime.
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to contribute to this, since my metallurgy class was 23 years ago, but according to my lecture notes, a bronze is an alloy predominantly of copper. When most people say "bronze", they mean copper-tin, but since Acolyte encouraged us to consult metallurgy texts, they say a bronze is any copper alloy and brasses are subsets of bronzes. e.g. the copper-beryllium alloy that Schilke used to make bells out of is "beryllium bronze"

"Commercial bronze" and "architectural bronze" contain significant zinc. So one could argue they are in the brass family. But when one is ordering metals, the goal is to get what one wants, not to be pedantically correct.
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Acolyte
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom LeCompte wrote:
I hate to contribute to this, since my metallurgy class was 23 years ago, but according to my lecture notes, a bronze is an alloy predominantly of copper. When most people say "bronze", they mean copper-tin, but since Acolyte encouraged us to consult metallurgy texts, they say a bronze is any copper alloy and brasses are subsets of bronzes. e.g. the copper-beryllium alloy that Schilke used to make bells out of is "beryllium bronze"

"Commercial bronze" and "architectural bronze" contain significant zinc. So one could argue they are in the brass family. But when one is ordering metals, the goal is to get what one wants, not to be pedantically correct.


"Significant" zinc? 1-2% perhaps, at most? And the only reason it's there is to aid processing (both in the mill and at the fabricator's shop) of the material and to reduce its cost...

The copper-beryllium alloy used by Schilke (and Ping golf clubs) is just that -- a copper-beryllium alloy. It's not bronze unless it also contains tin in a correct amount.

The bottom line is that bronze is an alloy of copper and tin and brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.
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