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Anyone ever use a Sennheiser 421 Mic?



 
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_Kanstul-Krazy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:08 am    Post subject: Anyone ever use a Sennheiser 421 Mic? Reply with quote

Does anyone have any experience with using a Sennheiser 421 for mic'ing a trumpet in a "Live"scenario?

I used one this past weekend for an outdoor music festival and had some good comments from folks that were listening saying that it picked up real well and the sound was nice and full, too.

Any comments & opinions welcome.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original 421 has been one of my favorites. Doing clubs on the road, I'd always have to sweet talk the sound tech to have him use somethng else on the bass drum . . . !
I've heard that the 421M doesn't sound as good due to the plastic casing - but it's the same element.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to use a 421 as an upgrade from the Shure 57. I liked it a lot better for trumpet, and it handled abuse well. YMMV - Don
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_Kanstul-Krazy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don

So you started out with a Shure 57, then moved onto a Sennheiser 421, then it sounded like you moved to something else???

So, what are you using now?
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lon,

I'm not doing live work now where I'm mic'd. I seem to be heard at church even when everybody else has a mic and I don't, go figure... So, the short answer is "nothing". Now, the long answer:

The 57 is a voice capsule with a slightly different grill (it actually uses the same one as the 58 ). It smooths the response very slightly, but does put in a "boost" in the upper mids I didn't like. It worked ok for lead'ish stuff (disclaimer: a real lead player I'm not, I just played at it) and rock bands, but I didn't care for it in jazzy settings. The 421 was (is) a bit flatter, and there are several other mics rated for instruments that have flatter response. The 57 is a decent mic for live work, but (imo) you've got to make sure the soundman knows its limitations for brass. Generally, I like a flat'ish mic, and then apply EQ to suit the room and/or the mood.

I much prefer condensers for most work, or ribbons (even more so, but can't justify the cost right now, little as I'm recording). My current mics are a pair of AKG C3000's, large diaphragm (actually, ML) side-address condensers, and an AKG C1000. I like the C1000 -- it has decent response, is a fairly large "small" condenser (end address), pretty rugged, and can take a (somewhat odd, unfortunately) battery so I can use it when I don't have phantom power. It runs around $200; last I checked, you could pick up a 2-pack for $300 -- a pretty good deal. When I want flat response, I use a calibrated (measurement grade) Earthworks omni. My default "cheap" flat mic is a Shure SM81, another small diaphragm condenser but with much flatter response than the C1000.

There are so many really good mics out there now in the $300 to $1200 range it's hard to choose! I really like the sound of large diaphragm condensers, and there are lots out there now. The Shure KSM-27/32/44 mics are nice, the AKG C3000/C4000, etc. Rode has some nice smaller condensers. Royer has a number of nice ribbons starting around $1k (and Mojave has a new tube condenser I've not heard but it has great lineage!) I could go on for some time, but there are a lot of threads on mics, with lots of advice much better than I could give. I'm pretty much out of the recording biz now, save doing a little recording for fun -- myself, our Praise Team, kid's shows at church, my boy's Young Concert Artist's orchestra (make a CD for them to sell as a fund raiser), etc. Lots of new names -- who'd'a thought about naming a mic company "Blue"?

Aside 1: Some of the cheap large diaphragms I've heard do not have the smooth response of the $300 and up units, and seem to vary a lot sample to sample so getting a decently matched pair can be a challenge. I honestly haven't looked at many -- tend to use names I know or come highly rated from trusted friends -- but if you're going to try a $100 largie, compare it to an AKG C3000 or KSM27 so you know what you're getting. I tend to pick a really expensive mic, e.g. Royer ribbon, Neumann (though they tend to be vocal-weighted) or some such, for reference so I can compare and contrast several others to a "common" reference. Many stores will let you take one home for a night or two (don't drop it or your credit card my not like you much!) to try out.

Aside 2: Many people mic trumpet too closely, imo, especially for studio (home or not) recording. Live, you may need it a little close if you want to control bleeding, but even then a foot away and down a bit, pointed up at an angle, usually works pretty well to give a bit more "spacious" sound in the mix while reducing overload. This does not apply to clip-ons, of course!

HTH -- Drop a note if you want more detail. TH members Fat Pauly and Tom Turner also have a wealth of knowledge on mics and recording.
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Last edited by Don Herman rev2 on Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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_Kanstul-Krazy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS Don!

I knew you would have some great input. And you're right, I have talked with Tom Turner as well, both on TH and on the side line. I'm trying to collect as much knowledge and educate myself on this stuff before I make the plunge.

Thanks Again!
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FatPauly
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't reiterate what has already been stated above, but add some info on the 421, based mostly on discussions with other recordists, as I do not own one or have ever used one.

First, like the Shure SM57, the 421 is considered a jack-of-all-trades in the recording and performance worlds. That is to say, it can be used in almost any application and will do a good job at capturing the sound. It may not be the best mic for a given application, but it will most likely not fail you.

Since it is a pretty solid mic, it is especially popular for miking drumkits, since it can take the occasional stick hit without crumbling.

The current models are black, but in the 60s and early 70s, there was a cream-colored version. In general, the older 421's are preferred by the purists, so if you score a cream one off ebay, then you know it is a classic. It can still be refurbished by Sennheiser too, so fear not an older model.

Finally, another respected mic is the Senn 441, which is a much different bird. I believe it is a condensor, so it need phantom power, and people I know who have one really like it. I would think of the 421/441 comparison as comparable to the SM57/SM81, if that means anything to you.

BTW - if you look in the gear list of virtually every professional studio, I guarantee you will see SM57s and MD421s listed.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't dream of arguing with Fat Pauly! But, I would like to follow up...

The 441 is a nice mic, albeit fairly pricey ($500 - $700 last I looked) for a dynamic. Becuase it is dynamic (yes, it is), no phantom power is needed. It is a big step up from the 421 or 57, imo, in sound and capability. It is (or was, anyway) one of the "top of the line" for dynamics. It will handle huge sound pressure levels without distorting, good for us! IF I had a real recording studio, I'd have a few! I used to have three and liked them a lot (LOT!)

BUT, for now, with a small mic stable, I'd spend that money on a decent condenser for recording, and/or spend the rest of the money on something else. I'd get the 421 or something like it for live work, just because I'm cheap and jaded by all those years (so long ago) on the road, which taught me that a using Neumann's at the local rock house was a waste of a good mic. The exception, for me, would be small group stuff... If I was still doing live work with a small jazz combo, or chamber group, I'd be more inclined to spend the $$$ for the 441's better sound and dynamic ruggedness (it's a classic desktop mic, able to handle the announcer knocking it off the table now and then).

I think the 441 sounds like a really, really good dynamic mic. However, I think it's closer to that sound, than to the flatness and "shimmering highs" of the SM81, if that makes sense.

FWIW, the 421 of my memory is cream, or sort of off-silver/ivory in color, not black. Hopefully they didn't mess up a good thing!

Finally, don't think I am knocking the 57 in any way -- it's a work horse, and reliable as all get out. I used it for years, but have come to think that I prefer other mics for trumpet. Now, I don't have 20 mics in my case, as I piddle more than play, and a 57 hasn't found it's way back in yet. (Though, I have a few at church or borrowed from friends.) YMMV - Don
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_Kanstul-Krazy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FatPauly and Don, THANKS a HUGE bunch for clearling some stuff up for me!

I've been looking on ebay and saw a few of those "cream" or "off silver" Senn 421's and wondered what the deal was with those.

I used a "black" Senn 421 this past weekend doing an outdoor gig with my Christian Rock group. When the sound dude handed it to me, I thought, "What is this old beat up piece of junk?". This thing looked like it hit the road four times over. Afterwards, I had several "GOOD" comments from people on how well I was picked up and how good my "sound" sounded. Hey, you gotta take the compliments when you get them!

At this point, I'm leaning toward (when the time comes) to try and get fitted up with a Sennheiser 421. There seems to be a fair amount around in the "used" or "resale" business. I guess these things are like 'ol Cameros in the Mic industry ....... Tried and True!

Thanks guys!
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FatPauly
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected. MD441 is indeed dynamic. It's niche is that it is a super-(hyper-)cardiod, so its pickup pattern is very directional. It also looks way cool!

Thanks for catching my error, Don.
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