pivot system types of some famous players

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

I thought it might be interesting and fun to discuss the types of some famous brass players.The upstream types; Bud Brisbouis IV, Buddy Childers IVA, Jon Faddis IV, Scott Engelbright IV or IVA,Wynton Marsalis IV, Cat Anderson IV, Doc Severinsen IV, Derek Watkins IV, Kai Winding IV, Dick Nash IV, The downstream types; Lyn Nicholson IIIB, Lyn Biviano IIIA, Dave Stahl IIIA, Arturo Sandoval IIIA, Harry James IIIA, Red Rodney IIIB, Al Porcino IIIA, Chuck Findley IIIB, Erick Miashiro IIIB, Conrad Gozzo III (standard type III or jelly roll type) Keith Green IIIB, Brian McDonald IIIB,Michael P.Williams IIIA, Rafael Mendez IIIB, Bill Watrous IIIA, Roger Homefield IIIB, Tommy Dorsey standard III, Art Sares IIIB, Dante Luciani IIIB, Sy Zentner IIIB. I'm not sure which sub-types these players fall under, ( in other words I'm not sure if they are IIIA or IIIB or standard type III ) but I'm sure they are all downsteamers: Wayne Bergeron, Bill Chase, Walt Johnson, Rodger Ingram, Charlie Davis, Johnny Madrid, Urbie Green, Tom Garling, Jack Teagarden, Frank Rosolino and Carl Fontana. A lot of guys have asked me what type Maynard was, well Doc told me that he thought Maynard was a IIIB. Doc had never actually typed Maynard up close with a clear plastic mouthpiece, but when I asked him what type he thought Maynard was here is EXACTLY what he said to me: " As close as I can tell, I think he's a IIIB." Doc Reinhardt's own personal type was the standard type III. I hope you all find this as interesting as I do. Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-08-31 11:08 ]

DSR · Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 9:25 am Post subject:

Chris,

I could swear Lin Biviano was a type IV. My father told me a story about Lin coming to doc and saying, "I wanna play like Bill Chase (IIIB)....make me a IIIB Doc". and Doc of course said "I can't make you a downstream." Biviano was seeking the resonant sound of the downstream types. Even if you listen to him on "Stick-It" or "Rich in London", he has the piercing brilliant of an upstream player.

This is just what I've heard at least.

-Brendan

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 9:31 am Post subject:

Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Miles Davis (the only one of these I never watched playing live) . . . and I think Tom Harrell are all Type IV's too. What do you guys know about that?

I'm thinking (from pictures I've seen) that Lee Morgan was also a Type IV. I'm also thinking that he started falling apart partly from the drugs, but also because he wasn't aware of why he needed to play differently from the downstream types. Any thoughts on this, or do you guys think I'm way off base on this one?

Rich
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hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Brendan, I actually asked Lin Biviano what type he was and he told me he was a IIIA. As a matter of fact most of the players types I listed in my post either came from Doug Elliot , Dave Sheetz, or right from my asking Doc what type someone was. All the rest are guys I either played with or asked them directly ( as in the case of bolth Lin Biviano and Lin Nicholson ) There were also a few cases when I had a really good video of the player and felt pretty sure of his type ( like Chuck Findley and Erick Miashiro ) You don't really need to have the player standing in front of you playing a clear plastic mouthpiece to type him. If you know what to look for and listen for you can easily type someone from a good quality video. Chris

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Just thought I'd bring this one to the front page again..........

I think this is an important one for all newcomers to check out.

Fellow Reinhardt students....... Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these.

Chris

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Chris;
Doc said something to me during one of my lessons in the 1980's that Linn had dentures in and had switched to a IIIA because of that. I recall that Doc said Linn was switching between a IIIB and a IV before the new teeth. Dave S. or anyone else is this correct????????
Frank Rosolino Urbie Green, Warren Covington were IIIA's.
Phil Wilson is a III.
WEG

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Hey Bill,

Both Doc and Kenny Smuckle told me that Lin had his teeth capped ( not dentures).

I remember Doc saying "Lin could have bought a new Buick with money he spent on his teeth"

Like I said in the original post, I knew that those guys where definitely downstreamers. I just didn't know their particular type.

Chris

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Chris;
I thought I remembered Doc saying Wynton was a IVA?????
WEG

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Here it is Dave......

Chris

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Bill,

Wynton looks like some kind of upstream.

IVA ???? IV????

Doc always said that it was very hard to tell with black players. He said you need to use the plastic mouthpiece.

What do you guys think ???

Chris

Wilktone · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:42 pm Post subject:

Chris, you mentioned Tom Garling in your first post. I've got some photos I think of Tom playing on a transparent mouthpiece, I think. I'm fairly certain that he's a Type IIIA, as I recall. I'll have to see if I can find those photos.

Dave W.

BeboppinFool · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:43 pm Post subject:

I'm definitely not famous, but my wife took a picture of me playing a high G, and I thought I'd send it. In fact, the first one is the high G, and the second one is on the way up to the high G.

Do I look like a IIIB? I always turn red when I'm playing. That's "normal" for me . . . and guess what, Chris? That G was really loud . . . I know, I know . . . one of these days I'll get all that soft stuff together for you.

Rich
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Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Going by the first picture, you look totally IIIB.

I'm glad you got a good high G. But on cornet !!! Who do you think you are Nat Adderly ????

Looks like you and I both have the same problem..... I have a tendency to tilt my head back a little for high notes too. Doc told me twenty five years ago to "Stay with the jaw."

Chris

Wilktone · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:54 pm Post subject:

Well, I'm not even as famous as Rich, but as an "honorary trumpet player," I can't be outdone! Here's my Type IVA embouchure playing the F above high B flat, the equivelant pitch Rich is playing. I don't remember how loud or soft is was, but I'll pretend it was an incredible pitch.

Thankfully, you can't tell my head position, but maybe we can look carefully and find something I could fix too.

Dave W.
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Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Wow ! That sure is a low placement.

It looks like it's ready to slip right off your top lip.

Do you play dry top ?

Wilktone · Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:27 pm Post subject:

Yeah, it is a low placement. I used to play with a dry top lip, but with some help from Dave S. I've been able to adjust to a fully wet embouchure, at least for now. The trick is to avoid pulling down on the top lip and instead bring the corners forward to the rim and "chase the horn." When this works right, it's golden. When it doesn't, everything's a mess.

Wilktone · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:39 am Post subject:

Now in these photos (with Rich on a closer-to-proper instrument

), Rich looks more like a IVA.

Rich, when I get to NC I'm going to have to photograph you on some transparent mouthpieces. I find it facinating that you play as a IIIB on trumpet and a IVA on bass trumpet.
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BeboppinFool · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:16 pm Post subject:

Dave, you crack me up, man!

My wife and I just had a great laugh about this. It's possible that I want you to come to NC more than you want you to!

And YES I'm dying to find out what you can detect watching me playing the closer-to-proper instrument on a transparent mouthpiece.

That photo was made a full 20 years ago . . . can you tell? How do you like those glasses? And that leisure-suit look? I'm so suave and debonaire there, aren't I?

Dave, you're the best!

Rich
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bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Rich;
I have an older photo of you (playing trumpet) and I with the CHS Jazz Band.
Should I scan it and send it to you????????????????????????
Or should it be sent to Paul G and be placed on the PIVOTALK web site????????????
I believe you are playing downstream in that photo.
WEG

Short'n · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:15 am Post subject:

Rich,
If you woud please tell us about the non-metatlic mpc's
you are a-blowing in the above photogs.
Looks like I need one.

-Sandy