Interesting (I think) Observation In Novice Players.

[bulos]

The past few weeks I have been helping out in the schools doing "instrument fittings". This is where me a and a few other guys from the area show up at the local middle school with a tumpet,bone,flute,clarinet, french horn ,baritone horn, etc., and then after a little initial shpeil the kids come up and try the various instruments. The idea is to help the director get her band started by finding the right child for the right horn. I usually take care of the trumpet/french horn wannabes, although I have found that it really is a moot point for invariably the kids who have an apptitude for one always do well on the other too. OK, here's the point of all this. I always start my little demonstration by playing a little on the trumpet and French horn for them, explain the musical and physical difference between them, and tell them "if you really want to play one of these instruments REGARDLESS of how you do on this little fitting you can, provided you are dedicated and willing to do lots of work"
Some of the kids naturally approach the trumpet with soft fleshy chops, wide open apertures, arm pressure, and fast moving air. These are the kids that I generally tell to try the sax or send them to the low brass guy.(unless of course their heart is breaking to play the damn thing) They usually struggle in vane with the trumpet and are lucky to play a low C with any kind of control or sound. Next there are the kids who although they may do somethings wrong, (remember these kids are trying this for the 1st time in their life usually) they do approach enough things correctly that once I tell them "OK try it again but this time think of firming your corners" or " Ok let's do it again but make sure your lips are lightly pressed together" or " OK let's try it 1 more time but blow much, much slower" and voila they come out with a nice middle G or perhaps a low C with a sembelence of sound and control. Now for the really interesting group, this group almost always have thin top lips. The two fore-mentioned groups can vary, but oft times their top lips are large to real large ... (I know, I know, there are, and have been great heavy lipped players but this is just what I am seeing in going through this with literally hundreds of kids a week so it's a good lab and I am merely the reporter) well this really intersting group will naturally play with firm corners, a firm chin, lips that are touching and resisting the air, and blow the air in a nice steady stream with no real prior instruction. (I always let the kids initial attempt be basically untutored so that I can clearly see the inherent tendencies) well this group's first note will not be low C or middle G but middle C and higher. In a few cases the first note was High C or E! Not all is a bowl of cherrys for these kids either however for when I ask them if they can slur down to a middle G or so they have a heck of a time just as when I ask one of the"flabby set" kids to try and slur up to a note higher then middle G or low C falters when I ask them to try that. So what do I make of all this? I think that anyone can learn to do something provided they have the dedication and are willing to do the work,BUT, and this is a big BUT; we are not all created equal. We are born with inclinations, tendencies, and talents unique only to us. The kid who struggles to play a steady low C or middle G with the proper input and guidance can get it together, he may never play lead in the flashiest big band in the world, but, he may have the temperment and talents it takes to be a great improvisor or perhaps orchestral player. Conversely the child who picks up the horn and in a week is playing "Frame For The Blues" may not have an original musical thought in his body, but certainly will make a fine lead player with work and dedication. The physical tendencies are there from day one and I guess it's a good teacher who can see them and knows what to prescribe to enhance them while addressing the short comings too. Will the choir say AMEN!

[hairy james]

Paul, I found what you said to be very interesting. You know, a lot of those kids with good first time chops could be upstreamers. They have a real advantage over all the other types for playing high, but flexibility and tonguing don't come easy for them. Now understand that I am speaking in very general terms here. One thing I would really be interested in is how the shape and length of a kids teeth ( crooked, strait, long, short ) affects his/her playing. Let me know about this one if you can. Chris

[bulos]

Chris, well aside form the thin top lips what I also noticed was that these novices to whom it seemed to happen easily for also had they type of natural face where the top lip extends well past the top tooth edge. All they have to do is place and it's like "instant chops". I don't recall any of them placing particularly low nor do I remember any extremely short teeth or dental irregularities. I have always harbored the notion that thin top lipped players are at an advantage when it comes to playing high more easily simply due to the physics of it. I mean on the piano it's the thick strings that produce the low pitches and vice versa. Again I am talking tendencies here for surely we all can cite many thick lipped players with plenty of high notes. i have also thought that perhaps a thick lipped player might have the advantage in terms of resonance, it seems that the more soft tissue to vibrate the more rich and varied the overtones...just a thought and theory. I realize this is in line with what Doc Reinhardt said about upstream vs. downstream types. Is it possible that a player with a thinner top lip is more apt to adapt an upstreeam set up while the thicker lipped player might more naturally fall in to the downstream type? Again just a thought.

[trumpetteacher1]

Paul (I assume that is your name from the other response),

Only a person such as yourself who is seeing a lot of beginers - and paying attention - could have made such an important observation.

Here's the deal.

The students who approach the trumpet with fleshy or rolled out lips need to be told how to roll the lips inward prior to attempting the buzz. THEN, these same players will also tend to begin on higher notes. I have done this hundreds of times, with nary a failure.

In my experience, players with thicker lips tend to have an advantage, not the other way around.

I urge you (OK, I beg you) to get my book and start these kids off correctly. You will be shocked at the difference that a little roll-in can make.

Again, I apologize for intruding in this forum. The posts are so interesting, I can't help myself!

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

[bulos]

yes Jeff where I actually the one teaching these kids I certainly would work on getting the unrolled fleshy lip types to do as you say and learn to roll in.........my function is not as their teacher however and I was only reporting this as an observation.......what then is it that you see as the advantage to fleshy bigger lips?

[BeboppinFool]

[trumpetteacher1]

Rich,

Well, it didn't seem out of line when I posted it, as Paul's observation was very much neutral to any method.

But, upon further review....

Sorry, Rich! It was not meant - in any way - to take away anything from Mr Reinhardt, who I know little about (I have the Encyclopedia, though) but to offer something that I do know.

Kids get "fitted" to horns for the worst possible reasons. It's a pet peeve of mine, and something that nobody else has addressed on any other forum that I'm aware of.

I am not posting here to get into an argument. If I ruffled feathers, it was through a lack of sensitivity on my part, and not intent.

Paul, I will respond to you via email, if that makes more sense to everybody.

Thanks for the interesting topic!

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

[bulos]

Hey, Paul! Actually, the size of the lips has very little to do with the type of player he/she is. It's how high the placement that is the main contributor, and then how much top lip is actually used. Cats who use very little top lip are almost always upstream players (do you agree, Chris/Paul?) and cats who use very little bottom lip are almost always downstream players.

Hiya Rich...yes I understand this and yes I do have the Encyclopedia as well as the Concone Studies (which I just love) and the red and white covered "Donald S Reinhardt's Pivot System" book so I am well covered in that area. I merely was presenting this as a hypothesis...............It makes sense that a low set type would be upstream for the aperture would be closer to the top of the cup then the bottom so yes we are in total agreement.

[_Don Herman]

So, Rich, from your statement should we infer that Doc had no "favorites" in terms of lip formation? My (limited) experience mirrors both Bulos' and Jeff's -- thinner lips tend to do well, especially through HS, as high-note players -- until they need real endurance and nice tone. Then, the ones with bigger lips, who've learned to take advantage of that extra padding, tend to win out. This is a GROSS generalization, on a very limited sample, so please nobody take offense. Personally, I think the problem's in the teaching (or, lack thereof) rather than the player.

I'm wondering if there are tips you could offer, from DSR's perspective, about starting players with different lip types? Or, is this another of those things which just falls into identifying the type, then applying appropriate exercises? Seems to me the latter is the usual answer, but curiousity is a weakness of mine...

I've got to get a copy of the Encyclopedia -- DSR has always interested me, despite the rather dark ITG article recently, and now that you've set up this forum I'm more inclined to do my research (knowing I can get help and clarification). I'm really enjoying things, but it seems (like getting the SC material) one has to do their homework first. Not a bad thing, mind you!

Play (or, pivot? ) on! - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[hairy james]

This one goes out to all of you, The upsteam type has a definite advantage in the upper register over the downsteam types (especially the IIIB ) I'll give you a great example, my wife has never been a trumpet player (Paul can validate that, he knows my wife) every once in a while when I've got my horn out she will come in to the room and ask me if she can fool around with it for a few minutes. The first note she usually hits is a high "C" she can play high "E's" all the time and a few times she's even played a couple of pretty good high "G's". She is a perfect type IV (the same type as Bud Brisbouis, Cat anderson and Jon Faddis) do you see a pattern here? Now that does'nt mean that a IIIB can't have a great high register, I'm a IIIB and I have an excellent upper register ( I don't even like bringing up my own playing on these forums, It drives me crazy the way some of these guys bragg about themselves, especially on TPIN) but I need to use myself as an example here. I as a IIIB have to work extra hard to maintain my lip compression to play high notes. I must also watch how big and loud I play in the middle and low range to keep from spreading my chops.These are common IIIB "quirks." Because the IIIB can produce so much sound in the middle and low register we all have to be careful about "falling in love with our sound" down there.Now the beauty of Doc's teachings is that if the IIIB does everything by the rules he can have a great high register like a IV. And the same thing goes for the type IV. A type IV can have the big sound, fast single tongue and flexibility of a IIIB. Like we have all been saying (Reinhardt students) Doc treated every one as an individual. when he typed me as a IIIB on my first lesson way back in 1979 I asked him "IIIB, what does that mean." and he said "Well, it means thats the road we are going to travel." In reality there are as many Pivot Systems as there are players. Doc treated everyone as a unique and separate inividual. Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-09-02 02:25 ]

[bulos]

" I as a IIIB have to work extra hard to maintain my lip compression to play high notes. I must also watch how big and loud I play in the middle and low range to keep from spreading my chops.These are common IIIB "quirks." Because the IIIB can produce so much sound in the middle and low register we all have to be careful about "falling in love with our sound" down there."

Chris, I have heard you say this many times over the years and it's obvious it works for you for you sound just great, but what of the guys who can play with a fat, "spread" if you will sound in the lower and middle registers and stilll play with verve in the upper register? Maynard comes to mind immediately of course, my perception of his sound (correct me if I am wrong) is that it is wide open and huge in all registers. Arturo too for that matter (of course I don't equate him to Maynard and I know he allegedly has a double embouchure) but his sound always seems 100%. I have heard a CD that Zoltan (mutual friend to Hairy and I) has of him playing drills and such that is just amazing in that the sound is always big. Ditto the time I heard him live (Z had a free ticket!!!) weather or not he is my favorite musician is a whole other issue and besides the point for we are talking physical here. My own experience is like yours, of course my high register is not nearly as developed. I have to really hold back it seems in the low and middle part of the horn to play any high notes at all and I don't like having to do so............it feels like too big of a sacrafice. I don't like the sound I get playing the middle and low part of the horn on a high note setting, it just doesn't have the breadth and fullness to my ears anyway. Actually I am not crazy about the type of sound many high note players get in the middle of the horn. Just heard Faddis on an older Newport show and as amazing as his high notes are the type of sound he produces in the "real range" of the horn just has no appeal to me. My ideal concept of a great trumpet sound would be Harry Glantz playing "Quiet City" not Bill Chase but of course I see the greatness in both. The point I am trying to make here is that I think to a huge degree, an individuals concept of and preference for a certain sound will effect all aspects of his playing. Now keep in mind readers this is not in any way a value judgment but an observation open for discourse.
It seems to me the really difficult part about trumpet playing is not any one isolated aspect , rather getting everything to work simultameoulsy. good sound, good range, good articulation, great phrasing, in other words MUSIC.
Roy Stevens produced a mess of guys in the 60's and 70's that could play loud high G's but many or even most were amusical. In those days when one of his guys would show up to a big band rehersal (when I was a kid in the 60's I remember this happening more the once) the older guys would bitch about their sounds and lack of feels. The norm then was for a lead player especially to get a big fat almost legit type sound in all registers. The fact that a guy could play in the altissimo part of the horn didn't mean anything if the sound and feel crieria wasn't met first. I think perhaps the specialized approach to trumpeting changed al of that for ever. Ces la vie.

[BeboppinFool]

Doc told me that while my embouchure is developing (and his definition of "development" is the period of time required before I have a stable, usable, and musical three octave register -- to G) that it would be better to not blow too loudly in the lower and middle registers. Then once I have achieved that level of development (notes up to four leger-line G any ol' time), then I could go ahead and open up my sound more in my lower and middle registers.

Chris reminded me that Doc used to say that the biggest problem with IIIB types is that we fall in love with our sounds. Now, we definitely can develop our embouchures while playing fat in the lower and middle registers, but it will take a lot longer. That's the hurdle I'm struggling with right now as a jazz/commercial trumpeter. I'm in love with my sound.

I've been getting plenty of G's on gigs in the past couple years, but I don't have them any ol' time. If I could learn to hold back more in the lower and middle registers, my upper register would develop sooner. I think this was Chris's point: if we want to develop that kind of upper register, it helps to hold back in the lower and middle registers during our embouchure's development. Then, once we've achieved a good solid upper register we can get away with filling out the lower notes more, although if we're not careful we can still spread our chops out and cause our upper range to suffer.

How'd I do, Chris?

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[bulos]

"Then once I have achieved that level of development (notes up to four leger-line G any ol' time), then I could go ahead and open up my sound more in my lower and middle registers."

Well maybe I need to be more patient. This brings into the equation another important factor and Chris and I have discussed this in depth many times, VOLUME. My experience is that I can practice and find a good comfortable level of volume that also feels great and allows me to produce my entire range with little effort..............efficient playing, but on the band stand in most of the situations I find myself in in the real world of music it's like whoa am I even playing everything around me is so friggin loud ? I know Chris advocates playing into a shield but that isn't always possible.

[hairy james]

Paul, We seem to be B.S'ing more than we used to do on the telephone here. Remember, I type with one finger! O.k. so here's the deal, I can play as big and as loud as I wan't to, BUT if I want to utilize all the upper register thats possible I must cut down my volume in the middle and low. If I did'nt mind sacrificing a few notes at the very top I could spread and open up the sound. I CHOOSE not to do this. Lyn Nicholson told me a very interesting story about the first time he went to see Doc. He told Doc that he wanted a consistent "G" above double "C". He asked Doc what he needed to do to achive that goal. Doc told him to try not to practice below a "G" on top of the staff, and to cut back on his volume in the middle and low register. Lyn said it worked like a charm. Yes, Maynard does have a big sound all over the horn, but I think most would agree that he is somewhat of an exception. And remember that before he got into his yoga breathing stuff and started playing huge horns and mouthpieces with #19 drill holes and even larger! He also played on the light side in the middle and low registers ( just listen to some of the stuff he played with Jimmy Dorsey and Chalie Barnet ) I also think he had more extreme upper register then. He was consistently playing up to "G's" and "A's" above double "C". Arturo is another story. He is a type IIIA. The IIIA has a little easier time of it than we IIIB's do. And yes I think he definitely uses a different embochure to play the extreme upper register. Doc used to call the IIIB the "Blood and guts" embochure, think about it. Al Vizzuti is a good example of a IIIB who plays light in the middle and low range and does a good job of utilizing all his top register. I only use that shield on rock and latin gig's, on a bigband or a show I usually play with one earplug in. I got that tip from Nicholson, he said doing that saved his butt in Vegas. But remember we are talking about So. Florida in the summer so I say "What gig's?" Chris

[bulos]

Paul, We seem to be B.S'ing more than we used to do on the telephone here. Remember, I type with one finger!

Well Chris I use 2, advantage old guy. I sort of enjoy this forum format for I can think about what I am going to say and be as objective as I set out to be. The only other thing I really wanted to add was to say that while I was out in the yard working in the lovely August heat I was thinking about this discussion and thought about Scott Engelbright, and what a far cry all of this is to his "it's all in the air" approach. Whatever works I guess is the bottom line.

[hairy james]

Paul, Ever see any videos of Scott playing? Let me tell you that if this guy went to Doc for a lesson Doc would have sent him home. He is one of the most correct and perfect ( from a playing mechanics standpoint) players I have ever seen. I'm sure Doc would have told him not to waste his money. He is also a type IV (upsteam). It's easy to say it's all air when you've never had any chop problems. If that little note making machine under your nose is working perfectly THEN IT IS ALL JUST ABOUT AIR!! As you and I bolth know from first hand experience thats not always the case. Throwing more air at incorrect chops never did and never will work. It's a simple solution to a very complex problem, and it makes people with major chop problems feel better to tell them that all they need is more air. Doc never lied to you about your chops he told it like it was. Hey, you said you type with two fingers, I told you I type with one finger. So you are a type II typist and I am a type IA typist . When you type do you think about keeping your fingers bent or strait? which is your anchor finger? right or left ? and do you strike the keys at an angle or do come stait down on them? these are important things to consider if you want to be a great typist. I have some routines for this if you are interested. Chris.

[bulos]

When you type do you think about keeping your fingers bent or strait? which is your anchor finger? right or left ? and do you strike the keys at an angle or do come stait down on them? these are important things to consider if you want to be a great typist.

Probably make more $$$ as a typist then I do as a trumpet player maybe I will look into typing school...........
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

[bulos]

[quote]
On 2002-09-03 00:05, hairy james wrote:
Paul, Ever see any videos of Scott playing?

Yes I have Chris he plays very easily. Have you ever read Bob Findleys's book and if so what were your impressions? I like what he says about air speed and efficiency.
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

[hairy james]

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-09-13 13:52 ]

[BeboppinFool]

Maybe I'm out of line, here, but this is the Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt forum. Why do readers keep referring other readers to books by other authors? I've seen at least three suggestions to go read somebody else's book here on the DSR forum, and that makes little or no sense to me.

Once we've exhausted the wealth of text and musical passages written by Reinhardt here on this forum (and it's only been up a week -- we may have a long wait), maybe then we'll be able to explore some of the opposing views.

Now that I think about it, pretty much all of the other forums on Trumpet Herald are already exploring opposing views.

Hmmm. Maybe we just need to be representing what was taught and left behind in print by Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt in this forum.

This is my opinion . . . do you think I'm out of line, here?

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz