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how should i approach this person?


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improver
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the older you get youll learn its not that important for someone to allways know how you feel about something.you know what you think about caruso and you know how you feel about what this teacher has said and thats whats important.if you however feel that it is important to talk to him just be straightforward with him and ask him if he would be open to discuss his views on caruso.but make sure your heart is right that you arent going in there to have a pointed discussion or arguement. if your not trying to change his mind and just want to discuss it with him he wont mind.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
if your not trying to change his mind and just want to discuss it with him he wont mind.

He put it in his book - it isn't likely that a new student is going to offer him anything so profound that he's going to immediately change his stance on the subject.
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
improver wrote:
if your not trying to change his mind and just want to discuss it with him he wont mind.

He put it in his book - it isn't likely that a new student is going to offer him anything so profound that he's going to immediately change his stance on the subject.


Although showing him commentary from the Caruso book and writings by people like Laurie Frink would be a good way to open up discussion. However, don't open up an argument.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does seem like the teacher is less concerned w/ advancing Caruso ideas and more concerned w/ developing muscle. Personally, I know more muscle in my embouchure does NOT equate to better endurance, as I have the nasty habit of after about a half page of solid playing my muscles over tense like this exercise advocates, and it's all downhill after that! So for me I suspect this approach wouldn't help, or rather I've already gotten as much good out of it as possible.

Has the O/P tried it? If so, w/ what results?

Ray
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JoeCool
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PG,
The Caruso exercises are very specific. That was part of Tweaks problem. How he deals with that and his teacher he will work out on his own and on the advice given here concerning that relationship. However, when the methods of the calesthenics are challenged as they were in some of the posts, it is my opinion that those posters should be asked to keep those opinions to themselves. Or go to the debating forum.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but wouldn't it be a lot easier for him to privately agree with himself to disagree with the teacher's Caruso references and be on his merry way? Why create an unnecessary conflict? Personally, I would address it only if it becomes an issue in the lessons, and then I would simply state what I thought I knew on the subject, (backed with text from other known Caruso teachers) politely discuss it, and take it from there.

Getting in a tangle with a college professor is just a really bad move in my opinion and should be avoided if possible. Again, I'm not saying that it can't be discussed in an intellectual way from differing points of view, but being confrontational, argumentative, or approaching a college instructor with the idea that they are "wrong" because it doesn't jibe with what you think you know (even if you are right) is probably not the best recipe for building a productive relationship with that instructor.
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pair of kings
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

similar story. . We have a local sax playing band director - I teach a bunch of kids in his trumpet section. He wrote an arrangement for marching band this past season where trumpets had the melody hanging on hgh concert C. One day at band camp he ran a "Caruso clinic" to work on their range. He stessed points like tension and building strength - getting the 'burn' and he compared it to running..
I was having fits, and ultimately printed up a page of "PC's Caruso Notes" for my students clarifying points that were, imo, misrepresented. Interestingly one thing the bd never mentioned at all was Timing.
I know it's a different situation with a prof and dealing with peers, but as much as I wanted to call him and straighten him out, in the end I thought better of it. He's been in the district a few years, and I hadn't found him to be real approachable in the past. In the end I decided it wasn't up to me to tell him how to do his job.

fwiw, my notes didnt' make any specific reference to his teaching, and I was hoping that he would see the sheet, but I don't know if he ever did. My students were able to see the errors of his approach, and we've moved on.
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TWEAK
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only reason i would ever bring this up is because i understand that caruso done wrong can cause problems. already when i mention caruso to other people here at school who have been in that class, they automatically say to me that it is an emboucure builder, and that it makes you strong right here (and they point to their corners). i hope that if i can just point out that it is a thing about coordination and timing and not about building, that the wording will be changed the next time he puts out a new edition (this is the 4th of his book).

i wil do it in te politest way of course, and not to get into an argueent. he already knows i am the guy who knows a lot about caruso here, and not just because i have told him i have been doing the exercises and talking to his former students, but also because there is another professor who does do the exercies here, and learned a few of them from laurie frink, and that professor knows that i know the exercises well, and he even told me that i understood them better than he did!
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urbie watrous
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: how should i approach this person? Reply with quote

TWEAK wrote:
there is a teacher at my school named dr. barry kilpatrick. he wrote a manual called "beginning trombone method" and i bought it because i am taking his advanced trombone class next semister.
there is a half a page section in the book where he introduces carmine caruso. he has written things in it which i find to be the negative things that people rumor about with caruso. how do i approach him without offending him (he is a dr.) and tell him about the errors of what he has written? he has never taken a single lesson with caruso.
the following is what he has written in his manual:
"caruso embouchure builder"
carmine caruso realized that the brass player's embouchure could be strengthened with the following exercise, (intervals in 2nds, not 6 notes, by the way) played in a way that is quite different from ordinary playing. follow these steps--
1. play at a steady, slow tempo (use a metronome or tap your foot)
2. do not use your tongue, and play at a healthy volume level. as you feel your embouchure muscles tire, maintain breath support.
3. maintain correct embouchure at all times. that is, hold the lip corners firmly, even when they begin to tire.
4. during the rests, breathe through your nose, do not relax the embouchre, and do not move the mouthpiece.
5. you will find that because of the non-stop and increasing muscle tension, you will tire much sooner than you expect. when you "run out of gas", keep blowing through the 2-bar phrase, even if you can't produce a sound.
6. wait a bit (it's up to you to decide how long) and start again where you stopped. continue until you can't play any longer.
this exercise may be best at the end of a practice session. play it daily and correctly, and you wil certainly build embouchure strength.


any comments??


There's not much I can add to the comments already posted, except that it's not entirely incorrect to describe the CC approach as embouchure building -- because it certainly does accomplish that. It's just that chop-building is ONE of the results of working the program, and it is not the main goal. It's easy, when you start practicing the exercises and noticing how much more high range you're developing, to think, "Hey, this Caruso stuff is a great high-range method," when the extra half-octave you've got is a RESULT of the practice, not the main thing you've been aiming at.

I'm not even sure I can point to one thing as "the main thing you've been aiming at" with the CC studies -- they develop a lot of things. It's more about what you're focusing on as you do them -- the Four Rules, and especially timing/coordination.

As far as dealing with the prof, be positive. I would say don't approach him at all -- just let it go. Since he knows that you're familiar with the Caruso stuff, he'll probably ask you about it at some point anyway. If other students ask you about Caruso, tell them to get a copy of MCFB. It's all in there.

If you walk into his office and say, "Hey, professor, you've got this all wrong," you're in for some trouble -- and it'll be your own fault. Don't do it!

Urb
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