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Messiah on Picc


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TAC
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:49 am    Post subject: Messiah on Picc Reply with quote

Is it current practice to use a picc on the Messiah D trumpet parts?

When I was in college, I bought an Eb/D trumpet for Baroque concertos and found that it worked well for Messiah if I used the D slides.

Now I do not play the concertos much, however, I do play weddings and I am using my picc tuned to A for The Trumpet Shall Sound and Hallalujah Chorus. Am I on the right track?[/i]
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trombapaul2
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best section set-up (to my ears anyway) is Picc on the 1st part and a D
trumpet on the 2nd. Both parts CAN be played on Piccs and both parts CAN
be played on D horns but it's nice to have a seperation of voices (Picc vs. D)
with a little more depth of sound in the 2nd part.

Just my $0.02

Paul
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CKatOU
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's "My 2 cents" and "a penny for your thoughts," you gotta think someone's making a penny.

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Cheng
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing the Messiah for the first time in two weeks. I am playing the second part and am a new member of the orchestra. I'll be using a D trumpet for most of the movements but if the director wants me to play "The Trumpet Shall Sound," I'll use the picc i A. So much easier.
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Athos
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always played either part on picc. This is partly because the D side of my Eb/D is such an unknown... I never use it! I rather like the sound with two piccs.
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loudog
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my philosophy for the horns used in Baroque music:

If there are just two trumpets, both play piccolos. If there are three, then the third player uses a D trumpet.

I don't really like the sound of just one picc and one D...i figure you might as well both play picc, to sound more similar.

Just a thought!

Louie
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Bill Dishman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:01 am    Post subject: Messiah on Picc/D? Reply with quote

Preferences for my are both parts on Piccolo.

2nd choice would be 1st on Picc and 2nd part on D trumpet

Two D trumpets sound too heavy in my opinion for the scoring of Messiah.
If two D's are used then the principal must be prepared to play very lightly and not with a powerful sound.

Bill Dishman
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maccluer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject: Doubling Reply with quote

Don't forget the doubling issue. Lots of orchestras pay doubling for pic and not for D trumpet. That has definitely influenced my decision in the past.

Also, try to convince the conductor to let you play "Glory to God" from offstage. It drastically reduces the sitting around required for the performance.
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nextbrassguy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Doubling Reply with quote

maccluer wrote:
Also, try to convince the conductor to let you play "Glory to God" from offstage. It drastically reduces the sitting around required for the performance.


Good point; I'd never thougth about that.

My thought is that 1st on picc, 2nd on D is best. "Blessing and Honor" has Concert low A's in the trumpets. These are pedal C's on the picc and thus problematic. You need the one D player to get those as low G's.
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camel
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first time I played it, I played 2nd, and did it on d trumpet. No problems. 2nd time, I played also 2nd, but this time on c. Also no problems. Now I play first, on a pic, 2nd player uses pic ( and c for the part which is too low ) no problem.

It doesn't matter, as long as you listen to each other, and try to make music together. Just use the instrument you know the best. Most of the time you can adapt the best, on the instrument which is the most familiar to you.
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bachstrad72
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be performing the Messiah myself this weekend. Our section is using a pic on first (myself) and a D trumpet on second. I would have prefered to use a D trumpet on this as I usually do, but a lack of time to prepare left me to throw it together on pic in a few days. I have performed this about as many ways as there is possible (Pic in A and Bb, Bb, C, D, and Eb). Dont discount Eb until you have tried it, it actually is quite playable in the key of B and the trills are very workable. Whatever you decide, good luck!
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tjsweetlips
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that two piccs are better than one.
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Last edited by tjsweetlips on Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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wvtrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously there is no set rule, but I have always used a D trumpet for second part and a piccolo for first. Things seem to match and lay well with that set up. It all comes down to the timbre' that your conductor wants to hear and what works best for the two trumpeters.
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brightandloud
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bachstrad72 wrote:
I have performed this about as many ways as there is possible (Pic in A and Bb, Bb, C, D, and Eb).


Is it possible and okayto play everything on regular old Bb or C?
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nextbrassguy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brightandloud wrote:
bachstrad72 wrote:
I have performed this about as many ways as there is possible (Pic in A and Bb, Bb, C, D, and Eb).


Is it possible and okayto play everything on regular old Bb or C?


How's your written high E on the Bb? The Messiah has two. If it is possible for you to get it right every time, and you sound okay doing it, then that should be your answer. I do find that the higher the trumpet I use on "The Trumpet Shall Sound", the better my endurance. I don't think I've ever attended a live performance where the soloist did use a picc on that one.
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camel
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think, that for sound it is better to play the first part on d or picc. the 2nd part can be done on c trumpet. But I wouldn't take a c or b-flat for the first part. Because that's a little bit too much
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just played it and I played second. I asked the first player what he wanted and he said he didn't care so I used D. trumpet.
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bachstrad72
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to use the Bb once in a pinch as my Eb valves were knocked out of round in a gig bag. It actually doesn't sound too bad as all of the trills can be performed as lip trills sounding more like the valved trumpets natural counterpart. If you have a high E then it shouldn't be a problem, just more effort than a smaller trumpet. And I have noticed over the past few times I have seen this performed by people other than myself, the pic IS becoming the standard for "The Trumpet Shall Sound"
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nextbrassguy
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bachstrad72 wrote:
If you have a high E then it shouldn't be a problem, just more effort than a smaller trumpet.


There is of course the slotting problem on "Worthy is the Lamb", where on a Bb, the first three pitches are G#, B, E. That B to E is a lot harder for me to get right than the section in the Hallelujah Chorus, where you play a written E major scale (with augmented 4th) up to high E.
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trumpetmike
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I have seen or played this piece, the set-up has always been 1st on a picc, 2nd on a D (apart from when using baroque trumpets, of course).
The exception being when I lived in Huddersfield and witnessed the brass band version of this piece - nobody used either a piccolo or a D trumpet - it was cornets all round
I have yet to see any first player change to a D for The Trumpet Shall Sound.
The factor that hasn't yet been mentioned is the sort of D trumpet that is being used. What I have seen used are NOT the large bell Schilke style D trumpets, every time I have seen it (or played it), the second trumpet has been using a small D trumpet (such as the Yamaha 6610, the Selmer or the old Besson model). The lighter sound matches superbly with the piccolo, yet you still have the ability to play the written low G.
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