Types?

EBjazz · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:17 pm Post subject:

Can someone please describe what the different types are? What is a type 3B? What is a type IV?
Do I need the Encyclopedia?
Where can I get it? I've never seen that info posted. I thought it was out of print.

Eb
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Eric Bolvin
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DSR · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 5:56 pm Post subject:

A lot of people have been asking about the types so I am going to describe them. This is just a short summary of what is in the encyclopedia.

First the pivot types. Pivot Classification One is a sliding of the mouthpiece and lips as one unit up to ascend and down to descend. Pivot Classification Two is a sliding of the mouthpiece and lips as one unit down to ascend and up to descend. When I say up and down I am NOT reffering to any resultant angular motion of the horn!

Second the blowing categories. Upstream players have their lower lip dominating into the mouthpiece and thus the airstream enters the cup in an upward direction and spirals (cc or ccw...i can't remember???) into the throat. As the upstream player ascends the airstream strikes closer to the rim of the mouthpiece. As he or she descend the airstream strikes closer to the throat. Downstream players have their upper lip dominating into the mouthpiece and thus the airstream enters the cup in an downward direction. As the downstream player ascends the airstream strikes closer to the rim of the mouthpiece, however this time in the downward direction. As he or she descend the airstream strikes closer to the throat.

Type Is: The lower and upper teeth are flush when the jaw is in the natural position. These types are quite rare. They either have a very high or very low placement. Flat horn angles.

I: Lower jaw slightly receded in the playing position. Mouthpiece placed very high on lips Can be pivot classification I or II. Downstream.

IA: Lower jaw slightly protruded in the playing position. More upper lip than lower lip in mouthpiece. Pivot Classification II except in rare cases. Upstream type.

Type IIs: The lower teeth protrude beyond the upper when the jaw in in it's natural position. "Lantern jaw types." Identical to IV and IVAs when playing.

II: Lower jaw protruded even more than in it's natural position. More lower lip than upper lip in mouthpiece. Pivot Classification II except in rare cases. Upstream type. Approx 2/3 lower lip, 1/3 upper lip.

IIA: Lower jaw slightly receded in the playing position. More lower lip than upper lip in mouthpiece. Pivot Classification II except in rare cases. Upstream type. Approx 7/8 lower lip, 1/8 upper lip.

Type IIIs: Lower teeth receded beneath uppers in their natural positions and playing positions. All downstream.

III: "Jelly roll type". Low horn angle. Mouthpiece a trifle lower than IIIA and IIIB. More upper lip than lower in the mouthpiece. Looks like a half and half placement from outside the mouthpiece. A lot of orchestral players are type IIIs...resonant sound. Pivot Classification I or II. Downstream.

IIIB: Horn angle slightly below horizontal but higher than type III. More upper lip than lower in the mouthpiece. Pivot Class II...no exceptions! Downstream. Mouthpiece slightly lower than Type IIIA. Downstream.

IIIA: High mouthpiece placement. More upper lip than lower in the mouthpiece. Pivot Class I...no exceptions! Flat horn angle. Downstream. When viewed through plexiglass MP...85% upper lip, 15% lower lip. When viewed from outside the MP looks more like 75% upper lip, 25% lower lip.

Type IVs: Lower teeth which recede beneath uppers in natural position. Upstream types.

IV: Lower teeth protrude beyond uppers in playing position. Low mouthpiece placement (2/3 lower lip, 1/3 upper lip). Pivot Class II with rare exeptions. Flat or above horizontal horn angle. Upstream.

IVA: Lower teeth recede beneath uppers in playing position. Very low MP placement (85% lower, 15% upper). Pivot class II with very rare exeptions. Horn angle below horizontal. Upstream.

This is a very brief and sloppy description...the encyclopedia takes 4 pages to describe these types. Regardless of type, the performer must protrude his jaw SLIGHTLY when ascending into the upper register and recede it when descending into the lower register.

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2002-10-05 21:05 ]

JoeCool · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:02 am Post subject:

Wow, this took alot of work to observe, study and compile. Pardon the ignoranusitis, but what does one do with this info? Even if I could decifer it and figure what the heck classification I fall into, what would I do with it. Is there a practical application? Like, once you know what you are and what problems you experience, can a Rx be prescribed?

I'm gonna go practice, my head hurts now.

Wilktone · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:56 pm Post subject:

Thanks for posting the descriptions, DSR (Brendan, right?).

If you go to the following URL, this may help you see and understand these types a little better. This article was written by me prior to my getting into Reinhardt's teachings more completely, and so the three types I list there are Doug Elliott's (a former student of Reinhardt's) simplification (one could argue an over-simplification) of Reinhardt's embouchure types.

http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken/teachbrass_2.html

If you can understand those three embouchure types, Elliott's "Very High Placement Type" could match the Types I and IIIA (which are similar, excepting the teeth when the jaw is in it's relaxed position). The "Medium High Placement Type" blankets the types III and IIIB. The "Very Low Placement Type" fits all the upstream types, Types IA, II, IIA, IV and IVA.

Elliott believes that his simplifications of Reinhart's types make it easier for people, particularly non-brass musicians, to understand. My initial exposure to embouchure typing was through Doug's types, which I then used to begin to understand Reinhardt's more complete types. The advantage of Reinhardt's types over Elliott's includes the added detail, for which a qualified Pivot System teacher can personalize materials even better.

Dave
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wilktone.com

alex · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:08 pm Post subject:

ok here's a tough one for you guys. i dont use my upper lip at all in high register. what type would that make me?

Wilktone · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:24 pm Post subject:

You don't use your upper lip at all in the upper register? Does this mean that you must move your mouthpiece placement to move from the lower/middle register into the upper register?

First, it sounds as if you are switching between types, which almost never works as well as learning to play over your entire register on one embouchure.

I think we would also need more information about this high register embouchure to make any statement with any certainty, preferably a photo or even better, a video. Even then, it's often very difficult to type someone without having them play into a transparent mouthpiece and observe the airstream direction.

My guess (only a guess, mind you) is that you are playing with one of the upstream embouchure types (Types IV or IVA, and these two types are virtually identical to Types II and IIA when playing, BTW). However, if your statement is accurate that you use absolutely no upper lip, meaning that you place your upper lip out of the mouthpiece cup altogether, then I couldn't say what you're doing here. My opinion (again, without seeing and hearing you play this way, so take this with a grain of salt) is that whatever you're doing is not going to work for you in the long term and you should instead work out how to play with an embouchure that utilizes both lips in the mouthpiece. The ratio of upper to lower lip is completely personal, however, and you can't put any one correct formula that will work for each individual.

Maybe someone else could chime in here and offer more informed advice.

Dave

alex · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:33 pm Post subject:

i hardly change my embouchure in different registers. i just put the 'red' of my upper lip against the mp (not over it), but there's hardly any upper lip 'playing along'. i've been playing like this for about 5 years now, and it sounds very sharp and edgy. i can't record myself right now, it's half past twelve over here and i don't think the neighbours would appreciate it

samlg · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:48 pm Post subject:

im sorry i dont get the pivot classificatins. i is a bit stupid! can you explain in laymans terms please!

its my small trumpet player brain!!!

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

No problem Pal,

Here goes;

First off there are two major types: Upstream type IV, and IVA ( the air goes up toward your nose inside the cup) And Downstream type IIIA, and IIIB. (the air goes down toward your chin inside the cup)

With almost no exceptions all upstreams (type IV, and IVA) pull DOWN to play high, and push UP to play low.
For a detailed description of what push up and pull down really is, see the post on this forum called "A must read for all". This will tell you in very simple words(Doc's words) what a pivot (pushing/pulling) is.

There are basicly two kinds of downstreams:IIIA, andIIIB. One (the IIIA) places very high on the top lip, and pushes UP to play high, and pulls DOWN to play low.

The other downstream (IIIB) places lower ( around half and half give or take) and pulls DOWN to play high, and pushes Up to play low. Notice that this pivot (pushing/pulling) is identical to the upstream type.

In very simple terms there are two upsteam types ( IV, and IVA), and two dowmstream types ( IIIA, and IIIB).

Thats about as simple as I can make it. If anyone else would like to take a crack at it please be my guest.

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2003-03-09 03:03 ]

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Chris;
Good job with the "Reader's Digest" explanation.
The Encyclopedia is a must read for ALL brass players.
Now here is a question for some of Doc's more experienced students;
There were (are) many IIIA's IIIB's, IV's, IVA's and a few III's.
Does anyone know of any type I's, IA's, II's and IIA's?????????????????????????????
Rich, as the moderator you can feel free to list this as a seperate topic.
WEG

Wilktone · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:14 am Post subject:

Wilktone · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:09 am Post subject:

I've got a question for all those who've seen enough Types I and IA. What physical factor is primary (or even secondary) in determining whether that player should place the mouthpiece high on the lips as a Type I, or low on the lips as a Type IA? What do you think is allowing one player to be most effecient as a downstream player and the other as an upstream player?

Dave

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 5:30 am Post subject:

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Rich and everyone;
As far as I know, I have NEVER seen any type I, IA, II, IIA.
Hey Rich, I'm a lot of help this time!
WEG

Wilktone · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:58 am Post subject:

Actually, I do have a theory about this, based on my dissertation research, but it's only speculation.

One thing I looked at while running my study was the physical differences one could observe in trombonists who played upstream versus downstream. Upstream trombonists were more likely (but not always, mind you) to have upper lips that were flatter or less protruded over the lower lips. Downstream trombonists were more likely to have upper lips that were more curled downward and/or protruded beyond the lower lips.

As I said, this isn't a perfect check for whether a brass player would play upstream or downstream, but there was a statistically significant correlation. Perhaps this is the difference between a I and IA embouchure, the shape of the lips.

Any thoughts?

Dave

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Rich;
Forgot to add this to my earlier post,
I have seen more Type IIIA's than any other type.
Have not seen many IVA's or III's especially among younger players.
Any one have any ideas about why there are so few I, IA, II, IIAs and not many III's?????????
Someone, Anyone, Bueller?
WEG

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Bill,

Doc always told me that the IIIB was the most common type.

The reason that you don't see a lot of standard ( jelly roll) type III's is because with the demands of range and endurance put on modern brass players most of them simply can't play with the jaw so far receded. Hence the standard type III is either IIIA or IIIB.

You don't see too many type II's because there aren't that many people walking around with underbites.

For a similar reason you don't see many type I's either. That bite ( Where the upper and lower front teeth meet perfectly flush) is very rare.

Chris

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Doc always told me that the IIIB was the most common type.

Chris, I don't want to start a fire here but I have to agree with Doug Elliott:
There are now more IIIA's than any other type.

The reason that you don't see a lot of standard ( jelly roll) type III's is because with the demands of range and endurance put on modern brass players most of them simply can't play with the jaw so far receded. Hence the standard type III is either IIIA or IIIB.

Chris,
The 2 type III's I have seen and heard in person had all sorts of range, power and endurance.
Phil Wilson and Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.

You don't see too many type II's because there aren't that many people walking around with underbites.

For a similar reason you don't see many type I's either. That bite ( Where the upper and lower front teeth meet perfectly flush) is very rare.

Those two points I do agree with you.
Does anyone know (Dave Sheetz?) what was Doc's range (upper register) when he was in his prime?
I remember very vivdly the two lessons of mine that he played.
I have never heard a more centered sound.
Now I'm getting off topic, so back to the original post before Rich comes down on me.
I faintly remember Doc saying he had seen one type I student or was it a IA?
Anyone know who it was?
WEG

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Bill,

I should have said type III (standard) trumpet players. Thats what I meant but didn't specify.

Doug Elliot told me the same thing about IIIA's. But DOC REINHARDT told me in 1980 that the IIIB was by far the most common. Doc also says on the Willie Olnick tape from 1988 that the IIIB is the most common type. I think it's safe to say Doc knew what he was talking about.

I think Kenny Smuckle was a type I.

Chris

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

I should have said type III (standard) trumpet players. Thats what I meant but didn't specify.

Chris,
I have never seen a type III on trumpet (as far as I know, here is where RW gets me by naming someone from our past). So I am unable to comment.

Doug Elliot told me the same thing about IIIA's. But DOC REINHARDT told me in 1980 that the IIIB was by far the most common. Doc also says on the Willie Olnick tape from 1988 that the IIIB is the most common type. I think it's safe to say Doc knew what he was talking about.

Doc did know what he was talking about, I agree with you 100% on that subject. BUT, Doug said it has changed over the last few years to more IIIA's.

I think Kenny Smuckle was a type I.

I don't think I have ever seen him play, so I do not know. Scotty would probably know the answer as to Kenny Smuckle's type.
Chris;
So what type is Kracker?????????
I am just curious because I do not recall ever seeing any type I's, IA's, II's, IIA's.
Would be interested in knowing so I would have a visual example, just in case I run across one of the above types at a clinic.
WEG