LIP BUZZING

tryingtolivethelife · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:43 pm Post subject:

I was wondering if somebody could speak somewhat along the lines of what Mr. Adam teaches about lip buzzing. My teacher is having me do this. And heres why, I have been experiencing in the past week or so, muscle seperation in my lips. That is where the bite of my 1C touches there is a hudge amount of muscle damage. I know this is most likley from playing with too much presure but I have stopped using the presure I used to. I used to use my pinkey hook to get the majority of my range. Till this summer when I was taught by Dr. Manhart and Dominic Spera. I have heard many people say that lip buzzing is very important to a good trumpet sound. Including my teacher. But the truth is I have realized my embochure isn't doing what I thought it was. I push my lips forward slightly when I play. So My teacher is having me work on lip buzzing and I have to totally change my lip position and it feels like crap. Well what have you all to say?? I trust my teacher so I'm trying really hard to do this. And also how far back should firm corners be pulled because when I pushe forward, my corners are quite firm but my lips buzz rather sloppy. and my bottom lip bucks out ever so slightly on the bottom.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,
Charles

MPWall1 · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:50 pm Post subject:

Mr. Adam does not advocate buzzing your lips. Sure, your lips will vibrate when you play the trumpet, but that is in sympathy with whatever pitch is being played.

The sound is already in the horn. We don't provide the sound by buzzing our lips to a certain pitch. To verify this, put the mouthpiece in the horn and tap on it. You'll get pedal C. Now put a piece of paper over the mouthpiece and tap on it. You still get pedal C. That's because the sound is already inside the horn. When we blow into the horn, the air molecules in the horn bang together and create a standing wave. Our lips will vibrate in sympathy with this standing wave.

Try this...put your lips inside the mouthpiece and blow air (don't buzz). Now blow air (still not buzzing) through the mouthpiece while inserting it into the trumpet. You'll see that a pitch results, and you never buzzed anything!

As far as the corners, they should be firm, but not pulled back into a smile. We want the buccinators (big muscles by your cheeks) to gently move forward and do the work of actually playing the trumpet. Everything inside the mouthpiece should stay loose and relaxed. If we pull back our corners into a smile, we thin out the area of the lips that can vibrate (sympathetically, of course) and we thin our sound.

I hope this helps.

Michael Wall
_________________
Michael Patrick Wall, Ed.D.
Independent Researcher in Music Education

PH · Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 7:24 pm Post subject:

I had a great reply for you, but I lost it when I found out I needed a new password.

How do you know you have muscle damage? Have you seen a doctor?

Generally buzzing causes more problems than it fixes.

Email me.

Yoinks · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 258

LOL I wish I lived in Bloomington too.

Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026

I would like to start by saying that you are a great player and teacher. I also respect your opion a lot. through my own personal research there is definitely different opinions on lip buzzing. Some people say it is benificial others say it is not. I can't lip buzz very well, but can play very consistently to F and sometimes G above High C. I have been reading "Pops" books and he believes strongly in lip buzzing. The books also discuss how legendary players like Clarke, and Mendez could do it. About nine years ago at Aebersold camp, I heard Bobby Shew free buzz tunes on his chops (no mouthpiece). I thought that was amazing. I don't know if he is an adovacte of that or not. He is definitely an amazing player. I have also heard that Arturo Sandoval can freebuzz a double C. So I guess what I don't understand is that some people play great without practicing lip buzzing, but some can free buzz a high C or double high C. It seems to me it takes a lot of control to do that. I don't understand why you think that it not beneficial. What are your thoughts?

[ This Message was edited by: Jon Arnold on 2003-01-18 12:31 ]

tryingtolivethelife · Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:46 pm Post subject:

Okay, now I have gone through and embochure change... I play with a totally different sound. I used to really love my trumpet sound, and now it takes so much work to sound as dark and full as I used to. I used to almost pucker I guess, my lips pushed forward and my teacher had me learn to buzz and then base my new embochure on that set up. I don't know what results I'll really get because I'm just at the point where I can sort of play witch a decent sound I can already feel the down falls of this set up, my flexability is much less... tounging takes a little more work and it's a little harder to make a nice sound. I think that if you can free buzz its good to practice, but of course some embochue set ups can't free buzz right?? Perhaps this is why its not taught?? Does Mr. Adam advocate embochure changes.

Intresting to see this thread come back up,
Chuck

MPWall1 · Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:19 am Post subject:

Chuck-

Mr. Adam told me that the perfect embouchure was one that could play any note, at any dynamic, in any register, in any style, etc...

Certain setups might tend to get in the way of this goal, such as having the mouthpiece rest on the red of the lips. I played that way for years and ran into a lot of trouble. I started studying with Adam students and made the trek out to Indiana to see Mr. Adam himself a few times a year and soon enough, I was playing on the white.

Did Mr. Adam or his students change my embouchure? NO. What Mr. Adam changes is the way you think. He and his students provide a model sound for you to copy as you play. My mouthpiece moved as a result of hearing and playing a different sound than I previously was. I kept my focus totally on the sound and my body adjusted and did what it needed to do in order to play the sound I was hearing in my head.

So if you listed to great trumpet players and focus on sound and sound alone when you play, things will fall into line. No one listening cares what it feels like or what it looks like. Everyone cares what it sounds like. Get the sound first.

Sorry to barge in here, Prof. Harbison (Jedi Knight). Please let me know if I missed anything.

Michael Wall
_________________
Michael Patrick Wall, Ed.D.
Independent Researcher in Music Education

PH · Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2003 7:58 pm Post subject:

Mr. Adam does indeed have a limited number of his students do a VERY limited amount of mouthpiece buzzing. This is used only for a very small number of students when he is trying to solve a limited number of very specific challenges and I don't know of anyone who had buzzing assigned for more than a few weeks. I only know him to use mouthpiece buzzing. I know of no instances of Adam assigning free buzzing. Therefore, to say that Adam is not into buzzing is not 100% accurate.

Of course, virtually all Adam students blow/buzz the lead pipe.

The sound production process for trumpet players is one that involves the entire sound production mechanism. This includes both the body and the equipment. It includes (at least) the breathing apparatus and air passage (lungs, abdominals, intercostals, diaphragm, pectorals, shoulders, throat...), the oral cavity (tongue, palate, etc.), the embouchure, the mouthpiece, the trumpet, and (of course) the air that is in the horn and the energy that activates that air via the act of blowing.

The key to all of trumpet playing is balance between all physical elements. When any aspect is out of balance (overdone or underdone) the entire system is out of kilter. This results in inefficiency, as other parts of the playing system have to compensate. For example, an instrument that does not resist the air adequately might cause a player to increase the resistance (and tension) in some part of their body as compensation.

This system is very complex and there are very few people who can effectively diagnose the root cause of such an imbalance effectively. Generally, the biggest culprit is excess muscular tension. The best indicator of imbalance (or balance) is the quality of the tone. We achieve physical balance by relentlessly pursuing a gorgeous resonant tone in all registers at all dynamics.

Mr. Adam (and a very small handful of his best students) can listen to a player and analyze that player's tone in such a way that he can tell where and how the student's playing is out of balance. Believe it or not, Adam can tell from the presence or absence of certain overtones in the harmonic spectrum if a student is holding excess tension in his upper thorax or has an improperly positioned and tense tongue (for just 2 examples). Adam is then capable of demonstrating a tone for you to emulate that will cause you to gradually rebalance your playing system. The teacher does the analysis and creates a prescriptive tonal model. All the student does is listen to the demonstration and emulate.

Clearly this is not a process that translates easily to a book or the internet. It absolutely requires in-person call and response playing between master/mentor and student. In the process the student is able to keep their mind totally focused in a world of sound. This eventually produces both great technique and the mindset of a real musician.

As for the buzzing thing, in a general sense (PH speaking) I agree that buzzing can develop some muscles that are an important part of the playing mechanism. However, the way one uses those muscles in either free buzzing or mouthpiece buzzing is not exactly the way we use them when we are playing the trumpet. The balance of the system is different, with different resistance, a different length of tubing (or lack thereof), a different length of resonating air column, etc.

In theory, it is probably possible for someone to use buzzing to develop certain muscles and then use those muscles in a different way when they play the trumpet. I am certain that this is what Bobby Shew does (and he will tell you that if you ask the right questions). However, most people try to play the trumpet the way they buzz the mouthpiece. This results in all kinds of imbalances, with too much lip tension, too small an aperture, inadequate airflow, isometric tensions in the breathing mechanism, etc.

For most people these pitfalls of mouthpiece buzzing far outweigh the potential benefits. I repeat, if the teacher is a real expert (and they are unfortunately few and far between) then a limited amount of mouthpiece buzzing can have a therapeutic effect with 2-5% of students at certain points in their development. In my experience 60-75% of people who practice buzzing have more negative than positive effects.

re: Embouchure changes. Mr. Adam changed my embouchure 23 years ago. He changed Michael's (as he said above), and he changes almost everyone's chops in some way. However, the way he does it is evolutionary, not revolutionary (my words). His approach is not one that makes the student chop conscious or self-conscious in any way.

Adam causes inefficent embouchures to evolve into efficient embouchures by listening/watching you play, analyzing your sound (and the imbalances in your system), prescribing specific exercises and etudes for you to play with a specific sound and approach (which he demonstrates via call & response). Over time the way he plays for you (sound, articulation, dynamics. etc) evolves as your playing and your needs evolve. He plays with a different sound for every student and he plays with a different sound for me in each lesson, depending on what I need and where I am in my development.

Is that clear?

MF Fan · Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2003 9:59 am Post subject:

Not much I can add to Pat's thorough and informative post, other than to share my own personal experience. I too was briefly intrigued by buzzing based on things I had read on the internet, and was doing it throughout the day while driving, walking, etc. After a period of time, I found that it added tension to my "sound production mechanism." It lead me to pinch and close my throat to some degree since this is what it took to get the best buzzing results. Kind of like a bad appplication of the Adam's focus on sound: By focusing on buzzing sound, I was hurting my trumpet sound!

It's also my experience that buzzing range isn't really correlated to playing range. I gave it up and am the better for doing so. It causes you to focus on chops, which is generally going to distract you from sound and/or proper breathing.

With that said, the one benefit I did realize came in the form of an 'aha' vs. an actual physical benefit: Free-buzzing does force you to form an embouchure with the corners in a foward, compact setting. At the time my embouchure on the horn included corners that tended to pull back slightly, though not to the extreme of smiling, per se. Buzzing illustrated the proper (IMO) set-up for me, which I then adjusted to over-time on the horn. Buzzing didn't help me transfer it to the horn physically, it was more of an awareness thing.

As for big name players being able to buzz, i.e. Shew, Mendez, etc. I suspect it is more of a byproduct of good mechanics(effect), not the cause.

Batmann · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 112

It that clear? As clear as can be expected. I was just intrigued by Mr. Wall's claim that he does not buzz anything to produce a pitch. If this is the case he can effectively fullfill his musical obligations by tapping on the end of the horn and never put his lips to the mouthpiece, better yet why not leave the mouthpiece at home and just use the mouthpiece reciever? In both demonstrations the note produced while tapping the mouthpiece was a pedal C. I can only guess that there is more than one note in that there horn, how do you get the rest of them out?

/o/
^^
Batmann

[ This Message was edited by: Batmann on 2003-01-21 18:06 ]

BRSpringer · Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:46 pm Post subject:

I suggest you read the article published in the June, 2001 issue of the ITG Journal where the author, a physics professor, constructs an artificial embouchure under the pretext of proving Mr. Adam wrong in his assertion that the lips do not buzz (vibrate, yes) while playing the trumpet. In effect he proves that Mr. Adam is correct.
As far as the tapping on the mouthpiece: This is merely part of a demonstration by Adam on how sound is created on the trumpet (the nodal and anti-nodal points, the standing wave, etc.). He explains this in detail on his video. You are correct that the note tapped is a pedal C. Press the second valve and you get pedal B, etc. These are just the fundamental pitches of the overtone series on the trumpet. Obviously, the other notes on the horn are created by hearing the pitch, air speed, etc.

Barry Springer

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:55 pm Post subject:

What's the difference between lips that are buzzing and lips that are vibrating?

Jonny Boy · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:26 am Post subject:

This is what I've learnt so far.
Lips that are vibrating, should be doing so as a sympathetic response to the standing wave traveling back and forth inside the trumpet.
Lips that buzz (in the way that we free buzz) are also vibrating, but have tension in them.
You can hear this in a persons sound.
The lips should ride the air stream, not restrict it.

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:58 am Post subject:

What is the difference between the actual section of the lips that is oscillating when the lips are vibrating and when the lips are buzzing?

PC · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:31 am Post subject:

If I may barge in uninvited here without too much cluttering a dedicated forum with personal (uninformed?) opinions:

- it seems to me that if it truly was the case that lips only vibrate as a sympathetic reaction to a standing wave somehow already present in the trumpet from just blowing air, then one would be at a difficulty trying to adjust out of tune notes in the instrument by lipping up or down. In fact one would have trouble changing one's sound by adding removing overtones.

- my take on this issue is the following: you have to excite the air column with a continuous vibration to get a standing wave started. This can be done by buzzing the lips OR tapping on the mouthpiece (tapping will produce a sort of square vawe pulse which can be decomposed in a series of waves of different frequency, including the frequency that corresponds to the fundamental standing wave of the tube). Buzzing the lips produces a "dirty" sound, with the presence of many frequencies. My take on Mr. Adams view is that by listening to the sound colour instead of tweaking the lips to buzz the exact right frequency that would match the desired notes, you will find the most efficient way of exciting the trumpet with a beautiful sound. The complicated feedback between the ear/brain perceiving the sound and trying to match an ideal sound is much faster and efficient than the conscious effort of tensing or relaxing the lips the right amount for each note to be played.

So I believe there is benefit in lip buzzing as a means to strengthen them, teach them to be more flexible and cure double buzz issues, but one should not strive for a good sound (i.e. single frequency) nor should one overdo buzzing till the lips become tired and spread. Likewise, on the trumpet, find the most efficient (low resistance) lip set-up for a given note by listening to the sound and forgeting about your lips, as the full harmonics rich sound will guarantee that you are buzzing the right way.

I hope my post was clear and not too much out of topic since this is the Adam forum and maybe only qualified answers are called for.

Pierre.

PH · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:32 am Post subject:

The lips do indeed open and close at a rate that is directly related to the frequency of the note. The opening of the aperture is caused by the air blown by the player. This starts a flow of energy which is conducted through the air inside the bore of the trumpet. When that wave energy reaches the bell the vast majority (over 90%) of that energy is reflected back toward the mouthpiece. When this energy reaches the lips it actually serves to close the aperture again (making the lips touch). As long as the introduction of energy (from blowing) continues the entire process continues.

The oscillation of the lips is actually caused by a combination of airflow (which opens the aperture) and the reflection of that energy from the bell (which closes). The frequency of this opening and closing is largely a combination of the amount of energy imparted by the blowing combined with the degree of tension or relaxation of the lips (resistance) and length of the air column (which dictates the possible wave lengths of the vibrating air column and sets up the overtone series).

Part of this explanation is vague because I am not a scientist and my understanding of the science is necessarily vague. Part of this is vague because most trumpet players/students are not scientists and wouldn't understand their terms and theories if they explained them to us. We need an "Idiot's Guide"!

As for the difference between buzzing and vibrating-

To me buzzing implies the making of sound by the lips. That doesn't necessarily happen when playing the horn. Arban stated that his lips did not make a sound in the mouthpiece. The lips do open and close in a regular way and this is an essential part of the sound making process. However, the action of the muscles when buzzing a note on the lips in a free buzz (with no apparatus beyond the body) or buzzing that note on the mouthpiece (with only a very short column of air to excite and completely different reflective properties to the wave) is quite a bit different than playing that note in the most optimal way on the trumpet. Many (or most) of the same muscles come into play, but in substantially different roles and balance due to the different acoustical properties of the 3 different sound production systems (1. the body, 2. the body plus the mouthpiece, 3. the body plus the entire instrument).

As a therapy for certain playing problems, buzzing in moderation can have some benefits such as sensitizing the lips, moving the feeling of sound production to the front of the mouth, closing a lip setting that is too open, etc. However, for most people there are more potential detriments than benefits. It is far better to learn to reconcile the activities of your body to the acoustics and physics of the trumpet than to those properties of the mouthpiece. We generally don't get audiences to come hear us play the mouthpiece.

As a footnote, the reason Adam has people play on the leadpipe as a precursor to playing the trumpet is that the mouthpiece/lead pipe combination has more of the physical and acoustical properties of the full trumpet system, but without the physical resistance or the tendency to negatively judge the quality of the sound product (which puts the mind in a negative space). The player can establish the airflow and the basic position and resiliency of the embouchure in a less challenging setting before approaching the trumpet, but without the great risk of excess embouchure tension and inhibition of the airflow that usually results from free buzzing or mouthpiece work.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-01-22 11:03 ]

Pops · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:13 am Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2003-05-13 13:13 ]

PH · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:30 am Post subject:

Well, all I can say is that Pops has an approach that seems to work for him. That's great (seriously). A lot of what he says is contradictory to the Adam approach, so I feel compelled to say so. However, we're not looking for an argument (and I don't think he is either). In the final analysis everyone should find and work with an approach that clicks for them.

Everybody here wants to be a better player and have more fun. Most of us want everyone else to be a better player and have more fun. I hope everyone here loves to play and finds themselves getting steadily better and better.

As far as I can tell, the "proof is in the pudding". Successful approaches produce great sounding successful musicians.

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:38 am Post subject:

I believe the Weast study was emplying a constant vibrating mass in its system which may be very unlike what occurs in a trumpet player's embouchure. Sort of like changing pitch on a violin string by only tightening the tuning peg. If so the whole study would be irrelevant.

Regardless, I'm still trying to understand the difference between lip tissue that is vibrating and lip tissue that is buzzing. Has the last word been offered on that yet?

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-01-22 13:42 ]

_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:00 pm Post subject:

Bugleboy,

Just wondering about the statement about the Violin string. I ahve been thinking about the diameter of the mouthpiece in relationship to the actual ability to facilitate someone's range. If the diameter is smaller, wouldn't it allow for a small aperature to attained more efficiently. Like with a Violin string. If you shorten the string, does the pitch not get higher? And if you are using a MPC with a smaller diameter, wouldn't that be along the same lines as the violin string? The general aperature would be smaller, allowing for higher notes to be produced more easily.

Just my thoughts. What do you think?
Nick
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www.trumpetherald.com