LIP BUZZING

[_bugleboy]

I think we are being out of line in this forum to wander off from the Adam topic. I would continue this issue in one of the open forums.

[Batmann]

[PH]

Pasted from above:

As for the difference between buzzing and vibrating-

To me buzzing implies the making of sound by the lips. That doesn't necessarily happen when playing the horn. Arban stated that his lips did not make a sound in the mouthpiece. The lips do open and close in a regular way and this is an essential part of the sound making process. However, the action of the muscles when buzzing a note on the lips in a free buzz (with no apparatus beyond the body) or buzzing that note on the mouthpiece (with only a very short column of air to excite and completely different reflective properties to the wave) is quite a bit different than playing that note in the most optimal way on the trumpet. Many (or most) of the same muscles come into play, but in substantially different roles and balance due to the different acoustical properties of the 3 different sound production systems (1. the body, 2. the body plus the mouthpiece, 3. the body plus the entire instrument).

As a therapy for certain playing problems, buzzing in moderation can have some benefits such as sensitizing the lips, moving the feeling of sound production to the front of the mouth, closing a lip setting that is too open, etc. However, for most people there are more potential detriments than benefits. It is far better to learn to reconcile the activities of your body to the acoustics and physics of the trumpet than to those properties of the mouthpiece. We generally don't get audiences to come hear us play the mouthpiece.

As a footnote, the reason Adam has people play on the leadpipe as a precursor to playing the trumpet is that the mouthpiece/lead pipe combination has more of the physical and acoustical properties of the full trumpet system, but without the physical resistance or the tendency to negatively judge the quality of the sound product (which puts the mind in a negative space). The player can establish the airflow and the basic position and resiliency of the embouchure in a less challenging setting before approaching the trumpet, but without the great risk of excess embouchure tension and inhibition of the airflow that usually results from free buzzing or mouthpiece work.


I thought this answered your question very thoroughly, Charly. What's missing?

[_bugleboy]

The terms "buzzing" and "vibrating" seem to be used to mean two different things in the Adam approach. So, I asked, "What's the difference between lips that are buzzing and lips that are vibrating?" Specifically, what is " ... the difference between lip tissue that is vibrating and lip tissue that is buzzing."

To me buzzing implies the making of sound by the lips. That doesn't necessarily happen when playing the horn.

Then I am understanding you to say that the lips can vibrate and make sound as in free buzzing, and they can vibrate and not make sound as when playing the trumpet. In both cases, however they are by defintion, vibrating, because in both cases they are engaged in a rapid, oscillating activity. The lip tissue is presumably making 440 oscillations when an A440 is produced by free buzzing and making 440 oscillations when playing a concert A440 on the horn. Am I correct so far?

My question asked what the difference would be in the activity going on with the lip tissue when it is vibrating in these two different circumstances. Regardless of the difference in the forces being applied to the lips from the muscles of the embouchure, the end result is a vibration of a certain amount of lip tissue. I'm just wondering what differentiates these two vibrations. Sort of like hitting a tuning fork. No matter what you hit it on or what you hit it with, once it is set into vibration it is always the same vibrating activity that is occurring in the tuning fork.

This post is not intended as a challenge to what is being said here. It is just an effort on my part to clearly understand the ADAM position on these issues.

...the action of the muscles when buzzing a note on the lips in a free buzz (with no apparatus beyond the body) or buzzing that note on the mouthpiece (with only a very short column of air to excite and completely different reflective properties to the wave) is quite a bit different than playing that note in the most optimal way on the trumpet.

I'm sure there is a difference in the embouchure in free buzzing and actually playing the horn. But is the actual vibrating lip tissue doing the same thing in both cases, or is there a different manner of vibration occurring in each case? This is the essence of my query. The lip tissue is not a muscle and as far as I know can only be manipulated by the muscles of the face. I don't believe the lips can act independent of the muscles. I'm sure they will be manipulated differently in free buzzing and horn playing. But when they finally produce a vibration in a certain amount of that lip tissue, is that vibration essentially different in free buzzing and in horn playing?

Arban stated that his lips did not make a sound in the mouthpiece.

Is this with the mpc in the horn, out of the horn or both?

[PH]

CR: My question asked what the difference would be in the activity going on with the lip tissue when it is vibrating in these two different circumstances. Regardless of the difference in the forces being applied to the lips from the muscles of the embouchure, the end result is a vibration of a certain amount of lip tissue. I'm just wondering what differentiates these two vibrations. Sort of like hitting a tuning fork. No matter what you hit it on or what you hit it with, once it is set into vibration it is always the same vibrating activity that is occurring in the tuning fork.

PH: Well, there is definitely a regular action of the lips in both instances. In my mind (as a trumpet player/teacher) the key differences are that:

1. In one case (buzzing as in free buzzing) the “vibration” is made exclusively by the lips and their resistance to the airflow out of the body. The motion is induced by the lips reaction to the blowing. In the other (playing trumpet) the regular motion of the lips is a sympathetic result that is dependant on the acoustical properties of the trumpet (the reflected energy closes the lips-not the player’s muscles). The motion is induced by the lips reaction to the blowing AND the reflection of the energy in the wave form.

2. Related to number one; therefore, the balance of muscular activity in the embouchure (and elsewhere) is different when playing the horn than it is when playing the mouthpiece or free buzzing. A player whose embouchure position, tension, etc. is set up to buzz (free or mouthpiece) will therefore automatically be out of balance when transferring that approach to the horn. This results in a less than ideal tone and excess physical tension.

It’s all about balance. Carmine knew that, too. That is why he had people play the trumpet immediately after doing buzzing work…so they reestablished their balance on the instrument (which is different than in buzzing). It is largely the same muscles involved in playing the mouthpiece and playing the horn but they are used in quite a different fashion (which is diametrically opposed to some of what Pops stated above.).

CR: I'm sure there is a difference in the embouchure in free buzzing and actually playing the horn. But is the actual vibrating lip tissue doing the same thing in both cases, or is there a different manner of vibration occurring in each case? This is the essence of my query. The lip tissue is not a muscle and as far as I know can only be manipulated by the muscles of the face. I don't believe the lips can act independent of the muscles. I'm sure they will be manipulated differently in free buzzing and horn playing. But when they finally produce a vibration in a certain amount of that lip tissue, is that vibration essentially different in free buzzing and in horn playing?

PH: I think the key question here is one of lip tension (and the tendency to achieve that by either stretching the lips via a smile or compressing them excessively by smashing them together-as in using too much mpc. pressure to close the aperture or in another approach using the tongue to manipulate the lips, etc.). It takes a lot more lip tension to elicit a free buzz than it does to play the same note in balance with the physics of the horn. The results of transferring a buzzing embouchure to the horn include excess chop tension, a strident or dead sound, throat tension and other counterproductive isometric tensions in the abdomen, etc. When a player learns to play in balance with the instrument the excess effort and counterproductive physical activities and tensions work their way out of the player’s approach. Carmine achieved this balance by focusing on rhythm. Adam achieves it by focus on timbre. They actually take philosophically similar, nonmanipulative approaches to achieve a similar goal of balance throughout the playing system. The exercises and the mental focus is different, but the understanding of learning psychology really isn’t.

Maybe this should be on that other thread (“Combining…”) over in the “pedagogy” forum. This is definitely PH trying to explain the nature of something that Adam would probably not want to explain. He would rather get the student doing and not evaluating.

PH: Arban stated that his lips did not make a sound in the mouthpiece.

CR: Is this with the mpc in the horn, out of the horn or both?

PH: I assume he is speaking of playing the horn.

[Atomlinson]

"A player whose embouchure position, tension, etc. is set up to buzz (free or mouthpiece) will therefore automatically be out of balance when transferring that approach to the horn.

This results in a less than ideal tone and excess physical tension."

How do you explain how great players like Hakan Hardenberger and James Thompson (and many others) use mouthpiece buzzing daily and produce such a wonderful tone quality?

I think that the above statements are clearly shown to be inaccurate, there are players who can make the transfer, certainly in the case of mouthpiece buzzing, very successfully.

Interestingly, both Hardenberger (in the article "Stamp: "Symphony No.1" on O.J.'s Trumpet Page) and Thompson (in his "The Buzzing Book [Editions BIM] talk about "balance".

HH: "We have two raw materials, one is the vibration of the lips, and the other is air. This is what we have to work with - the two building blocks. What happens when something is wrong is that the balance between vibration and air is disturbed. What you practice at the start of your day is to achieve this balance." (1st page)

JT: "If the tone is resonant, the player is playing with correct support and balance. "Balance" indicates the relationship of airflow to lip tension" (Page 5)

Andrew Tomlinson



[ This Message was edited by: Atomlinson on 2003-01-23 14:52 ]

[BRSpringer]

Bill Adam told me last month, "If mouthpiece buzzing makes Bud Herseth a great trumpet player, then do it!" Adam has the highest regard for Herseth (I believe it is a mutual admiration), but he will tell you there is more than one right way to play the trumpet. If you believe that mouthpiece buzzing helps you to play better, do it. If you believe the mouthpiece/leadpipe set up is best for you, then do that. Whatever works. Some of the players that Adam would have us listen to as an example of the sound he wanted were, and are, mouthpiece buzzers (Herseth, Severinsen). What he had us focusing on was the sound concept, not just the physical mechanics. I am quite sure that all those aforementioned players, when it comes down to it, are thinking "Song and Wind" as they are playing (oops, got off on another, but related forum). In conclusion, it is the end result that counts.

Barry Springer

[Atomlinson]

I agree with you.

The subject of free-buzzing or mouthpiece buzzing is and always has been a controversial subject.

Here are a few examples on the subject of mouthpiece buzzing:

Claude Gordon: "The theories continue; there is much discussion on buzzing the mouthpiece. But you are not playing a mouthpiece, so why waste your time on a mouthpiece when you could be practicing the instrument? The feel of buzzing on a mouthpiece is not the same as playing your instrument, and it is a waste of time to use a mouthpiece as a practice instrument" (Brass Playing is No Harder than Deep Breathing. Page31)

Max Schlossberg: "Before any actual instrumental practice is begun, the mouthpiece must be played daily for at least two minutes in slurring and staccato form exercises from concert G to C. (Daily Drills and Technical Studies. Introductory notes.)

Keith Johnson: "Mouthpiece playing does not require an inordinate portion of one's practice time to provide substantial benefits. Between five and twenty minutes daily seems adequate for most people, although greater amounts will do no harm so long as buzzing is kept in perspective with time spent on the instrument." (Art of Trumpet Playing. Page 67)

Irving Bush: "The writer recommends a daily half-hour's practice on the mouthpiece for all serious players. (Artistic Trumpet Technique and Study. Page 44)

I don't think there are very many trumpet teachers/players who are completely against it.

Andrew Tomlinson

[ This Message was edited by: Atomlinson on 2003-01-23 16:32 ]

[ScottA]

I have been mulling over a response to this topic for a few days. I have a hard time understanding how a pedagoical techinique like buzzing the mouthpiece that is heartly endorsed by such well known and respected teachers as Arnold Jacobs, Jimmy Stamp and James Thompson to name a few, can only help 2-5% (PH) of those who use it???? So approx. 95% of the previously mentioned teachers students got no benifit from it??? Did I misunderstand something in that post? Certainly these are the "highly qualified " type of teachers that are referred to.

A related story: Out of the blue yesterday the french horn teacher at my store commented to me that a student purchase a "BERP" last week. He had never seen or used one before. He said in his 30+ years of private teaching (He is a highly qualified teacher and player with an MM) he has never seen a student make such progress in one week. Ever. I guess it worked for her (the student)!

[PH]

My personal feeling is that buzzing practice (as with most things) can have both negative and positive effects. and that for most people the long term balance of that equation is negative. If other people feel that they have positive results from buzzing, then God bless 'em.

I prescribed some buzzing work a couple of weeks ago for a student who frequents TH, but as I said before, this was a prescription for a very specific challenge. Even in this case, where buzzing seemed an appropriate remedy for right now, this student probably will start to see diminishing returns in a month or two. At that point I would advise him to take the buzzing out of his routine. It will have accomplished what it was supposed to.

For Adam and his students it is axiomatic that buzzing driven pedagogy is not a great help for most people in learning to play the trumpet.

Different strokes...

p.s. regarding Arnold Jacobs pedagogy

It has been my experience that there are far fewer negative side effects from buzzing for low brass players. I think that this is probably due to the differences in resistance, moutpiece size, and other physical and acoustical properties of those instruments. I have also found that mouthpiece buzzing has fewer negative side effects for people playing conical bore brass instruments. Therefore, buzzing pedagogy seems to work better for flugelhorn and cornet payers than trumpet players.

I have a theory that buzzing pedagogy was first widely popularized by cornet players/ teachers and in cornet method books. This worked pretty well until people began to apply a cornet approach to the trumpet. Note: This is just PH's theory and is not backed up by anything but anecdotal evidence.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-01-24 07:02 ]

[_Don Herman]

Hate to jump in here, but a couple of observations:

1. Arnold Jacobs did NOT like "free" buzzing, mpc only. (Too large a risk in playing the "wrong" way with free buzzing.)

2. My teacher (a Jacobs student and highly-regarded orchestral player) advocates mpc buzzing and we do it every lesson (as do I at the start of most practice sessions). Like (or at least similar to, as I understand it) leadpipe buzzing, it's just to get a feel for the buzz, airflow, etc. No more than a few minutes, and not too wide a range (dynamics or pitch). We do match pitches to the horn, and do a little "ear training" exercise during the mpc warmup (helps to learn pitches when you don't have thehorn to help).

Sorry to jump in Pat -- pretty long thread already! Delete if inappropriate.

All the best - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[_bugleboy]

Leadpipe playing is magic!

Mpc playing and free buzzing require effort.

[Pops]

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2003-05-13 13:14 ]

[PH]

I know what you mean, Pops. But actually, I'm kind of digging the discourse and the fact that there aren't any flames!

Collegiality uber alles!

[_bugleboy]

Magic is slight of hand, smoke and mirrors.

Only figuratively, but not in the true meaning of the word. Magic is a term that refers to accomplishing marvelous effects by use of supernatuaral or occult forces. The term "magic" is figuratively applied to any extraordinary or seemingly inexplicable power such as sleight of hand and other feats performed by magicians. Gandalf performs magic. Professional magicians perform illusions and other tricks that are figuratively referred to as magic.

Leadpipe playing requires virtually no effort other than to blow air. Blowing air isn't work. And then suddenly and marvelously the lips vibrate very much like they need to vibrate with the tuning slide in. No question, there is a Gandalf in every leadpipe!

What is the difference betwen buzzing and vibrating?
Buzzing the lips start touching and resist the air.
Vibrating the lips are slightly apart and pressure cause mainly by the mouthpiece and slightly by the air both going and returning; close them and allow them to buzz.

Pops, can you rephrase this. I'm not getting the meaning that I'm sure is intended.

There is so little difference in what CR is talking about that it seems funny to argue.

At this point, I don't think anyone except me knows what I'm talking about. I still don't know what difference is being suggested there is that exists between vibrating and buzzing. If in fact there is a difference, my question regarding the activity of the vibrating lip tissue in both free or mpc buzzing and playing the horn has, also, not been addressed.

Again, I haven't taken one position or another, so I don't feel as though I'm engaged in an argument. I'm just trying to understand what is being said regarding the difference between vibration and buzzing.

My biggest regret from High School is that I didn't pay more attention in Latin class.

Mea Culpa



_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-01-24 12:05 ]

[PH]

I took Spanish because the teacher was young & cute!

[Atomlinson]

PH mentioned the origins of mouthpiece buzzing. There is an interesting article in the ITG Journal of Feb 1997 entitled " The Methods and Etudes of Wilhelm Wurm" by Bruce Briney.

I quote the relevant section from pages 54 and 55 which some TH members might find interesting:

Third, Wurm was an advocate of learning to play by buzzing the mouthpiece. This excerpt represents an early printed reference to mouthpiece buzzing as a pedagogical tool. This methodology may have been passed on to subsequent generations and was part of Vincent Bach's and Max Schlossberg's training. Instrument designer and manufacturer Vincent Bach began his career as a touring cornet soloist. His reputation as a performer was well known in eastern Europe and Russia. As a prominent teacher, Max Schlossberg is recognized as one of the important links between the Germanic/Russian school and the development of the 20th century American trumpet tradition. Schlossberg made every one of his beginning students develop a technique for buzzing the mouthpiece in the first lessons. While there is no record of Schlossberg studying with Wurm directly, these techniques were evidently used by Russian trumpet players at the end of the 19th century. When Schlossberg arrived in the United States, his teaching technique involving mouthpiece buzzing was referred to as the "Russian method". Today, mouthpiece buzzing is a fundamental exercise used by many brass players and teachers. This entry shows Wurm to be a pioneer of the buzzing technique."

So there you have it.....IT'S THE GERMAN TEACHERS WHO TAUGHT THE RUSSIANS WHO STARTED IT ALL! Although I suspect the origins of mouthpiece buzzing may go back even further.

Andrew Tomlinson

[PH]

The Germans gave us both mouthpiece buzzing and excellent beers. I'd call it even!

[Jerry Freedman]

Inspite of all the erudite posting going on by those who know much more about trumpet and play much better than I, I still feel the urge to post. What happens inside the mouthpiece (interaction between lip, air vortex etc) when you are actually playing is extremely complex. There are no physical/mathematical models of what happens because its so complex ( and because physicists have other things they want to do). That being the case most what we read and hear is *HIGHLY* subjective. Any two trumpet players can argue heatedly about what goes on or what they think goes on inside the mouthpiece, yet what actually goes on is the same for both players. All we can do is fall back on empirical results. If some teacher's theories and recommendations work for you then stay with the teacher, otherwise leave. Some ( Pops, Carmine, Doc, Adam....) have proven results but I bet all of them have failures too. I think that dogmatism has no place in trumpet pedagogy

J. Freedman

[Pops]

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2003-05-13 13:14 ]