Fatigue

DSR · Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:31 pm Post subject:

Yesterday when I was tiring out during a practice session I noticed my lower lip wanted to roll in more and more until it ran into my top teeth, thus making the sound thin. To counterract the thin sound I dropped my jaw, fattening the sound again. As you can see this is a vicious cycle. If I try to go back to the "good" embouchure setting, I can't hold it for very long.

Any thoughts? What would Doc have told me in this situation. "Take a rest!"? Is there something I'm doing incorrectly or is it fatigue.

BTW...I have been doing the lip buzzing in the correct manner almost daily. It gets better all the time.

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Endurance Routine A and B could be a possible solution.
Before I get myself flamed, I'll ask Dave or Rich to further explain those routines.
WEG

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:36 pm Post subject:

Still having endurance difficulty there, Brendan? Now that some time has passed and we've discussed the trio (quartet) of daily calesthenics, you have some stuff to alleviate those areas. Especially if you've been doing Endurance Routine A and/or B as Bill suggested.

Rich
_________________
Puttinâ€™ On The Ritz

scream · Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:45 am Post subject:

A good description of "Endurance Drills A (Arbans) & B(Concone) " can be found on day six of the daily professional work out drills...

_________________
Paul Garrett
Lawrenceville, GA

"Wherever you go....there you are."
Buckaroo Bonzai

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2003-04-30 10:46 ]

outlawredneck · Regular Member Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 26

I'm the new kid on the block. A comeback player I guess you would call it. Studied a bit in the eighties with a student of Dr. Reinhardt. He didn't pitch the pivot system really strong but I learned to play better after having picked up the Pivot Encyclopedia once.

My problem is a little similar to the original post though it's my upper lip. Having pain there in lip and teeth. Comments anyone?

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 8:18 pm Post subject:

Placing the mouthpiece on an embouchure formed with buzzing firmness can eliminate all kinds of distortion under the rim of the mouthpiece, and that distortion causes premature fatigue.

As Chris and I have discussed by phone many times, this is not necessarily a "death-grip" clenching together of the lips, but a formation just about as firm as is necessary to buzz the lips.

Anytime you start feeling this fatigue, try making your embouchure "overly firm" before placing the mouthpiece on your lips.

The #1 offender for causing premature fatigue, I seem to recall Doc telling me, is careless, rapid mouthcorner inhalations. This disturbs the hermetic seal, the perfect circle, the timpani head, whatever you want to call it, and can be avoided by learning to use nose breathing whenever possible. If you read about the correct mouthcorner inhalation, you'll see that it's easier avoid unnecessary, undesirable movement during the inhalation if you breathe through your nose whenever possible.

I hope there was something helpful here.

Rich

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Rich Willey — www.RichWilley.com
5 Mountain Heritage Place, Candler, NC 28715
828-665-3864 / Fax 503 214 7155

[ This Message was edited by: BeboppinFool on 2003-05-04 23:20 ]

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Lets talk.....One Redneck to another,

It's hard to say without seeing you play, but I would guess that you are probably raising the horn every time you take a breath. In other words rolling that rim up and down against the upper lip every time you make an inhalation.

Either that or your "meathooking" it. Meaning that you are using your upper lip as a "meathook" to hang the mouthpiece on.

Try using more weight on your lower lip, this should help.

As said before, without seeing you all this is just guess work.

Let us know if any of this helps.

Chris

outlawredneck · Regular Member Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 26

Thank you for you replies. Will start to work tomorrow on using "buzzing frimness" prior to playing. Think I remember that term. Chops still hurting a bit this weekend so will lay off another day.

Chris, I think what need to do is something I've put off for a long time and that is to start playing more in the middle of my chops. A right to left adjustment. There's a tooth problem right behind my upper lip that nags me from time to time. Anyway I sound better when I play in the middle but lose about three notes off the top. Play downstream by the way.

Where does a redneck go to pick up chicks? He goes to family reunions.

Jesse

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

You really should try and see a teacher who is well versed in the Pivot System.

I'm in South Florida and Rich is in North Carolina, theres also Paul Garrett in the Atlanta area.

Ya'll come back now......

Chris

outlawredneck · Regular Member Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 26

Can anyone define the pivot so I can understand it? Now let me tell ya I been around the block a few years now and even I don't know just exactly what it's supposed to be. Apparently one definition said that a player pulls down as he ascends, that would be pivot 2, right? Conversely he that pushes up to ascend would be a pivot 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

All I've noticed over the years is that my horn angle tends to go lower as I ascend and returns upwards as I descend. But somewhere I read that the horn angle doesn't affect the pivot. Maybe I read it wrong. Some folks call this a pivot though.

Could it involve the direction the lips move? Like say whether they move lower towards the chin or upwards to the nose? Now I've tried to watch what mine do and I can't see a darn difference if I push the chops down to ascend or up. My guess is I sound better if I don't do either. Are my chops retarded or what?

Confused here in Portland.

Jesse

DSR · Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:45 pm Post subject:

Hey,

Here is the definition of the pivot (Chris posted this in another thread):

""IN AS BRIEF AND CONCISE A MANNER AS POSSIBLE - WHAT IS A PIVOT?"

THE PLACEMENT OF THE MOUTHPIECE IN THE SO-CALLED "GROOVE OF THE OUTER EMBOUCHURE" MUST NOT BE PERMITTED TO MOVE OUT OF THIS POSITION WHILE ASCENDING OR DESCENDING THE REGISTER OF THE INSTRUMENT; HOWEVER, SOME DEGREE OF "MUSCULAR ELASTICITY" MUST BE EXPERIENCED WHILE SO DOING. THE LIPS AND MOUTHPIECE "AS ONE UNIT" MUST MOVE VERTICALLY ON "THE TRACK OF THE INNER EMBOUCHURE" (teeth for trumpet - teeth and gums for trombone) AND WHETHER OR NOT THIS MOVEMENT IS TO BE IN AN UPWARD OR DOWNWARD DIRECTION TO ASCEND OR DESCEND THE REGISTER OF THE INSTRUMENT DEPENDS STRICTLY UPON THE PERFORMER'S PHYSICAL TYPE. THIS MUST BE DETERMINED ONLY AFTER A COMPLETE ANALYSIS IN THIS REGARD AND PRESCRIBED AND CARRIED OUT ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF MY PIVOT SYSTEM. AFTER THE PIVOT MANIPULATION HAS BEEN MASTERED, THERE MUST BE LITTLE OR NO ANGULAR MOTION OF THE INSTRUMENT OR ALTERATIONS IN THE POSITION OF THE HEAD. THIS IS MY PIVOT WHICH I INVENTED, DEVELOPED AND PERFECTED IN OVER FIFTY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE; NOT "WAVING HORNS IN THE BREEZE" AS THE "MISINFORMED" HAVE BEEN EXPOUNDING. A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING; THEREFORE, "WE MUST FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO!"

Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt 1908-1989"

Hope that helps.

-Brendan

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Hiya Gents!

..where can I see Endurance Routine A + B please?

Roddy o-iii<O

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Roddy,

I sent them to you in a private e-mail.

Don't think it's a good idea to post those here.

They a definitely NOT for beginers.

Chris