Tri-Labial Embouchure?

[tptguy]

<<as to Mr. Callet being the first to admit he was not a player, he told me he would "get out the violin studies" and challenge Doc Severinson any time.>>

Not looking to get into too much of a discussion about this because it really is beside the point. There are a number of acknowledged tpt teachers who don't play the instrument at all so it's surely not a requirement. And there are countless others that play the tpt very well and can't teach a lick. Therefore, it's a non-starter in both directions. Regardless, Jerry has made himself into a tpt player with more range, power, and endurance than anyone else going. That's the background for the Severinson quote. Put Jerry in a room with a violin transcription and any other player in the world and Jerry will be cruising along on auto pilot while the others hang on for dear life. As significant as it is, this is still a trumpet "feat", not a musical feat. It doesn't make Jerry into a concert hall performer or a Blue Note recording artist. As we all know, there are many additional musical skills that must be added to the mechanical part and Jerry admits that he has not spent time on those elements; he was too busy learning about chops. Those that study with Jerry are there for the mechanics, the part where he has pushed the envelope to an astounding degree and provided tremendous help to so many others in the process. Best regards, Kyle

[tptguy]

<<In my view, the traditional, time honored methods of achieving artistry, whether with regard to playing the trumpet or any other instrument, have a long track record of success.>>

With all due respect, I don't believe this can be said of tpt pedagogies. If so, there wouldn't be so many very dedicated trumpeters with such range, power, and endurance problems, so many major recordings with significant intonation problems, so many thousands of trumpeters searching desperately for fixes after decades of serious application of the traditional methods, or so many new books, videos, and web pages dedicated to fixing all that ails us. More obviously, if players really knew how to make the trumpet work well and easily then the Maynards and Harry James of the world wouldn't be such anomolies. And the sax players wouldn't be getting all the long solos! Best regards, Kyle

[Winghorn]

Not to belabor this, but Jerry made the remark to me about Doc and the violin studies in respose to my question about whether TCE allowed one to develope TECHNICAL skill, not range or endurance. Mr. Callet was clearly alleging to me that he was a better technical player than Doc. Who knows, maybe he is. But he has never, to my knowlege, publicly demonstrated his so-called prowess in a professional setting for all to hear like Doc and the other great players do day in and day out. It is one thing to impress students (and callers on the phone) with shrieks and squeals during a half hour lesson. It is another to play a 5 hour gig in a big band playing the lead book. Doc has done this, and much more. Are you saying Mr. Callet was so busy experimenting with his system that he could never even play one gig? Your statement that Mr. Callet would blow away Doc and other top players in a room playing violin studies because of his power, range and endurance seems to be pure speculation at best. What proof do you have for this statement. Have you ever personally heard Mr.Callet play a violin study or any other technical piece? Have you heard him play a five hour gig with a critical audience looking on? How is this relevent? It is about credibility. If Mr. Callet claims to be a better technical player than Doc but clearly isn't, why should I believe any other of his claims? Sorry to be blunt, but I am not the one making all the claims for Mr. Callet's abilities without backing them up.
Regards
Steve Allison

[Winghorn]

Kyle- You make some good points. And thanks for the nice tone of your post. Maybe I am cynical, but there are thousands of dedicated basketball players who have practiced for years and years and never make it to the pros. The vast majority don't. Same with the Olympics, dirt bike racing or any other endeavor where only a very few out of the thousands that try ever reach the big time. Unfortunately, we all are not naturally endowed with the same gifts. Same for trumpet. Only a small number of the eager, hardworking trumpet students out there will ever reach their goal of playing in the big league. A case in point. I use to play some gigs locally with the late Frank Minear, who used to play lead with Stan Kenton. He was still playing some of the most amazing (and musical) high G's and A's I have ever heard. When I asked him the secret to his high range he said,"I don't know. One day in high school I just discovered I could play them". I do not mean to discourage young players. Everyone should try to achieve their dreams. But the stark reality is the majority of aspiring players are not going to make it. That being said, I still think the traditional methods of learning to play the trumpet will give young players the best chance of reaching their potential. Why? Because the vast majority of players that have made it have learned by traditional methods. Hence, a proven track record. Even if TCE may work for some, why risk your future on a method that has not, to date, produced the kind of results that good, old fashioned practicing under a qualified teacher have provided year after year. Thanks again for the post.
Sincerely
Steve Allison

[tptguy]

<<seems to be pure speculation at best.>>

Actually no. Years ago, in order to promote his teachings he made a standing offer of $1000 paid to anyone that could hang with him. On several occasions, he presented his demonstration at Mannys in NY and many NY tpters took him on. Later, Jerry advertised the contest nationally and even raised the payout to $5000. He never lost his money.

<<Have you ever personally heard Mr.Callet play a violin study or any other technical piece?>>

Countless times. In addition, with every every lesson I've had with him over the years he has played technical etudes with me in unison then up a octave, then often up two octaves. He shows great ease in all 3 octaves. His 1st Superchops video shows him doing that with some of his students and always with astounding ease. The video is worth checking out just for that. BTW - Jerry led a big band in NY at one time so he's not a foreigner to 5 set nights. But that was before my time.

Regardless, I would encourage people to concentrate on what tremendous information he delivers in his lessons. Many, myself included, have reached levels we never dreamed of before due to his instruction. And, it wouldn't matter if he played trumpet no better than Carmine.

Best regards, Kyle

[Winghorn]

Thanks for the post, Kyle. What did Jerry mean by "hang with him"? Was it to see how high or long or loud on could play? Or what? No criticism, I would just like to know what the contest involved. Did Doc compete? I am sorry if I was overly critical of Jerry's playing ability. I based this on my own experiences hearing Jerry on the phone and the comments of other posters, some of whom use TCE. Since you heard Jerry play violin studies many times, I will ask you because you have first hand knowlege. Was Jerry a better technical player than Doc? Jerry suggested to me he was. But like posters have said, this is pretty much beside the point (other than credibily). The Bahb (Bob?) site has some good playing. Any other examples of successful players using TCE? And please posters, do not claim so and so uses TCE because of the way he sounds or looks while playing. A while back a poster posted a picture of Harry James in his later years playing with a "bunched chin" that suggested, to him, Harry was using TCE. The problem was, Harry had dentures by this time. In pictures of Harry playing in his heyday, he had a flat chin and looked pretty much like any other conventional player. At least to me. Anyway, I appreciate all the imformation posters have provided in response to my somewhat "Devil's Advocate" questions.
Regards
Steve Allison

[Forte]

[tptguy]

<<why risk your future on a method that has not, to date, produced the kind of results that good, old fashioned practicing under a qualified teacher have provided year after year.>>

In my experience, there are 3 types of students that go see Mr. Callet.

The first, and longest standing group, is comprised of very well healed pros that find themselves in ever more demanding situations. They know they need more power, range, and endurance while working less hard at it. The list of top pros that have sought out Jerry for his expertise in this regard is like a who's-who of jazz and big band playing for the last 30-40 years. Some took a lot from him, some took a little. But, they know what Jerry can do. In a recent Bobby Shew DVD Bobby compliments one of his trumpeters by saying the guy's an animal, he can do anything, he's like....like Callet. (Exact reference is on the Callet forum).

The 2nd group is guys like me, guys that spent decades studying religiously with renowned teachers of every description and just couldn't get it going. I'm a jazz player who couldn't manage the endurance needed to play solos all night long up and down the horn. I've never been been a lead player and it's not what I'm looking for. But, the more I studied traditional methods the worse I got. I have my masters in performance from one of the other teachers with a dedicated forum here on TH, so I'm not a poser. I stumbled across Mr. Callet while still believing that my 14 years with this other teacher would eventually work. I learned more and improved more in 1/2 an hour with Jerry than in all my previous years with the other guy. That's me and that's while I'll never go back.

The 3rd group is made up of the guys that have heard me and so many other Jerry students make big, big improvements in a short period of time. That's why you now can't throw a dead cat in the mid-Atlantic region without hitting a Jerry-guy or a hot student from one of Jerry's former students such as Ken Brader. Now, I have some really long term pros in my area that study with me. They do that because they've heard the huge improvement Jerry made in my playing.

Just my 2, actually 3 cents. Best regards, Kyle

[Winghorn]

Kyle- Another great post. This is the kind of information that is helpful to me. Like I said in an earlier post "I want to believe", but need convincing. I appreciate the nice tone of your posts, even after some of my cynical and "doubting Thomas" posts. We all love trumpet playing and all hope (at least I do) we can improve our playing. Frustration, thy name is trumpet playing! Best regards
Steve Allison

[tptguy]

Forte, very nice, very helpful post, I believe.

<<"hang with him"? Was it to see how high or long or loud on could play? Or what?>>

Just play the exercises in unison with him, volume was not an issue. When you couldn't go on you said "uncle" and let the next guy in line step up. As Jerry plays with such ease all over the horn he can go forever. So, it was never a real battle for Jerry. I've never heard that Doc participated. I doubt it. But if you've heard the very flat dbl C from the Tonight Show clip you get an idea of what Jerry was suggesting. Jerry can play up there all night long and never fall flat or lose the focus. Very importantly, keep in mind, this is a guy that couldn't play a decent high C after years of the traditional methods. Lots of guys, like me, have needed just what Jerry learned and now teaches. Best regards, Kyle

[ljazztrm]

There’s a few things I can share about my experiences with Callet’s teachings. I’ve had lessons with Callet off and on since the early 90’s.....I think that it’s important to approach Callet as a Carmine Caruso type figure...not to look at him as a trumpet player...but as a teacher who has a ton of knowledge about the brass player’s embouchure. In just about all the lessons I’ve had with Callet he has played the trumpet but, basically, just really loud, popping tonguing to illustrate the articulations and some slurring type things. I’ve never heard him play above a high G (above high C) loudly. He would play along with me playing certain Arban-like studies, usually, a fifth or sixth higher. Although I really feel it’s irrelevant, as Kyle has pointed out, if you want to get an idea of his playing, then you could check out the old Superchops videos if you can find someone who has them. Also, I’m sure Kyle has experienced Jerry’s playing a lot more than I have and he has apparently heard a different side of Callet’s playing that I haven’t experienced....I can only share my somewhat limited experiences of hearing him and recommend the SC video for a good representation if it’s really important to you.

About TCE being a high note method. I have to say that Jerry really never emphasized anything about the upper register in my lessons. He was always about the sound in the low and middle registers and, I felt, was way too unconcerned about the upper register! Anyway, the pro players I know who have had lessons with Callet all understand about his quirks and pecadillos and really go to extract the positive knowledge he has. He has helped a lot of players, including myself, who have taken what helped them from his teachings and discarded the rest. Bobby Shew and Roger Ingram are two well recognized names who benefitted a lot from Jerry Callet.

Steve, at one point I was using TCE and I was able to do almost all the articulations I could do with my traditional behind-the-teeth type tonguing. I work as a freelance player and used TCE on jazz, lead, commercial, and classical gigs (brass quintet, church work, and weddings). I say I could *almost* do all the articulations with TCE because I found it did limit my jazz inflections such as growling and other more extended techniques that I like to do. But, perhaps, I could of even developed that with TCE. I went back to my traditional way of tonguing because I felt that the TCE tonguing offered no signifigant advantage FOR ME and I was very used to my other way of tonguing. Elements of Callet’s teachings that have stayed with me and helped me are:

1)Realizing I can get a big sound out of a very small diameter mouthpiece.
2)If my corners are relaxed, that’s ok.
3)If my cheeks puff, that’s ok too.
4)Callet’s copper insulated JAZZ horn is AWESOME!
5)I don’t need a lot of air to play the trumpet.

Again, I don’t feel that TCE is a real ‘screamer’ method. I don’t know of any player I would consider a real lead/screamer who uses it...although it’s a relatively new method. I had a great lesson with Bahb Civiletti once who is a great trumpet player and uses full-fledged TCE. He had a big, beautiful sound on a very small diameter mthpc. a loud, consistent range to high G (and he could play up to double C and above at at around an mf volume), and who could do very delicate classical articulations. If you’ve been to his website, you’ll see he specializes in the baroque/natural trumpet which requires extreme delicacy combined with very fine embouchure control.

Well, that’s my 2 cents on the whole JC thing.....If anyone decides to go have a lesson with Jerry, I would just say to go with an open mind....He’s a really nice guy who really wants to help other trumpet players.
All the best, Lex.
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

[Winghorn]

Lex- Thanks for sharing your experiences. It is interesting that you do not necessarily have to use all of Jerry's methods to apparently derive some benefit from his teachings. I think that part of my wariness toward Jerry's methods is that I have never known or played next to a player using his techniques. I am more of a classical player myself, and all of my early teachers, as well as all of the trumpeters with whom I currently perform, use traditional methods and equipment. And they all sound great. We almost all use 3C and larger size mouthpieces and Bach/Yamaha/Schilke ML bore equipment. My experience with players using tiny mouthpieces and large bore horns has been, unfortunately, almost completely negative. In fact, I cringe when a young player shows up with a MF horn (I mean no offense here- these horns sound great in the right hands) and a small size Jet-Tone or Schilke Bill Chase model mouthpiece. These players always seem to play out of tune and with a spread, nasal tone. And they always warm up with the most obnoxious shrieks and squeals. I guess I shouldn't blame the equipment, but whenever I see a player with this kind of gear and approach to playing, I cringe. I guess that is why many of Jerry's ideas regarding equipment and playing methods cause a knee-jerk response in me. I would like to hear more clips of players using Jerry's methods, and maybe someday sit next to one of Jerry's students. I guess that is the only way for me to give Jerry's ideas a fair trial. Thanks again for the post.
Regards
Steve Allison

[ljazztrm]

Hey Steve....Thanks, I've enjoyed reading this discussion about Callet's methodology and am always interested to hear other player's views on the more non-traditional approaches. As far as the whole small piece/big horn thing goes, this has not been my experience. It's kind of like hearing about players who can only play high notes and that's it. I simply don't run across players like these on gigs....It's been a long time since I've played any gigs with trumpet players who aren't very good players..at least as far as sound, technique, and musicality are concerned. What I run across far more often is jazz or classical players who have a great sound, technique, and musicality....but who struggle with their chops. I think I tend to come across this the most often in small group jazz players. The players who I've worked with who play very small diameter mouthpieces sound really good and have mastered a very efficient way to play....some of these players use smaller bore horns and some others use large bores...

I have come to learn that if you learn to play in a certain very efficient way, you can use a very small diameter piece and get a very big sound....to adjust the sound quality, all you need to do is to change the cup depth and, possibly, the backbore. Of course we have to keep in mind that, to a certain extent, what may feel small to one player, may feel big to another depending on a variety of factors which include; lip thickness, teeth, and embouchure formation. Also, I'm not saying that players who use the bigger diameter mouthpieces are NOT efficient. Obviously, that would be a ridiculous statement....but I feel that there are many players out there playing on diameter sizes too big for them and which cause bad habits.

In the end, I feel that any good, experienced player, who wants to improve their efficiency even further, really owes it to themselves to look into different playing techniques and equipment that may help them. I think it takes practice to experiment with adjustments to embouchure and equipment, but that it can be well worth it if done with intelligence. I find in my own playing that I continue to develop more intelligence/wisdom in this area and that it has helped my playing immensely. All the best, Lex.
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

[bulos]

[Winghorn]

Hi Lex- I should have been more clear about the small mouthpiece/large bore trumpet experiences I have had. None of my comments apply to advanced or pro players. I was referring to high school students who show up for some volunteer gig and essentially ruin the performance for everyone else. My fear is that some young students who do not want to "pay their dues" and do the work necessary to master the trumpet may pick a shallow, tiny mouthpiece force out the high notes without regard to pitch or "taste". That is what I meant about having a "knee-jerk" reaction to this kind of set up. Bill Chase sounded fabulous on his small mouthpiece. And Mendez used a 10 1/2C or some such and did pretty well(!). It sounds like Jerry's methods, used for their intended purposes, may be helpful as part of an overall plan of developmnt. I think that if TCE practitioners would avoid "overselling" this method as a cure-all for all the so-called ills of traditional methods, there would be more acceptance. I am sorry, but Jerry's boast to me that could outplay Doc still makes me think "snake oil salesman". Having input from players, like you, who have benefited from TCE is much more pursuasive to me than the wild claims some enthusiastic followers feel compelled to make. Thanks again, Lex.

[tptguy]

I spent a lot of years and a lot of money with teachers that sent me in embouchure directions that would not work for me. One of my biggest name teachers repeatedly told me of all the mistakes Maynard was making while he proceeded to dig a deeper and deeper hole for me. Nonetheless, I would never call any of them snake oil salesmen. Though they made big mistakes, I'm sure they were genuinely trying to help me to the best of their abilities. They offered the best they could for the time. I'll always respect them for that.

Like all honest teachers, Jerry Callet believes wholeheartedly in his instruction. Unlike many, he has really done his homework. And, he has helped hundreds of very fine players reach their goals and beyond. He deserves great respect for that. Like one of my former instructors preached, "Give credit where credit is due". Best regards, Kyle

[Winghorn]

Kyle- Fair enough.
Regards
Steve Allison