How to obtain a tonal concept?

[tknowlton]

I just want to get a little dialogue going. You know, just for fun. Frankly these forums stagnate, plus I would genuinely like to hear people's thoughts.

I was playing a vocalise type of piece tonight and just singing my guts off through the trumpet and I got to thinking about how to get students to really sing through the trumpet - to have a healthy mature sound, with a concept of vibrato - and even musicality.

I know there are a lot of issues here. But here are a few thoughts:

1. Can a young student really play with a full mature sound? It seems that their concept of tone comes bit by bit and that it is truly rare to hear a kid younger than, say 15, to play with a full mature sound.

2. How does one get a student of any age to play with a full mature sound. (I know it's a big question).

3. I am a firm believer in singing. Even if a kid doesn't feel all that comfortable singing out loud it is extremely important for them to sing in their brain... to audiate as the music educators would say. What do you do to get timid young students to work on this aspect of their musical development?

4. The mechanics of vibrato aren't terribly difficult, but, at least for me, it is difficult to get students to really get a feel for it, to use it in a sensitive and beautiful way. I am sure this also ties into their internal singing.

5. How important is being exposed to good music at a young age?

Go ahead and rant!

Tyler
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[Don Herman rev2]

Listen, listen listen, to great players, great musicians, great singers... A role (sound) model and learning by example and by direct exposure, via CDs/records/LIVE PERFORMANCES!/etc. is the best way I know to develop a sound concept. That's one reason I like to play for my students -- amazing how often a simple demo heads them in the right direction.

Unless I head the wrong direction, of course...
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[Luke6335J]

Commitment, patience, listen, listen listen and GOOD TECHNEQUE. It also helps to have some one to give you feedback about your sound. But it is not a simply matter of listening to what you want, you have to have an idea of how to achieve the sound concept you are trying to aquire.
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[trumpetmike]

[Wes Clarke]

I recall that I wanted to play the trumpet because 1) my dad had an old trumpet and couldn't afford to by me a trombone (talk about dodging a bullet), and 2) Herb Alpert and Al Hirt. But, I really developed a concept of what I wanted to sound like listening to my father's recording of Tchaikovsky's 4th and an old recording (don't think I ever knew who the soloist was) of the Haydn. As an adult, I had the opportunity to travel on business to Chicago quite frequently from about 1983 to 1989. I always made time to hear the symphony when I was there during the season. Hearing great performers is inspirational at any age.

[guo2]

1. yes. i know plenty of kids younger than 15 that have mature sounds.
2. constantly playing back and forth in lessons works very well. have them listen listen listen to great players as has been said.
3. Yes! having students sing in lessons is great.
4.your ideas are great, but i'd back off on the vibrato. to me, vibrato is just something extra to add a little flavor. just have your students experiment a little, i dont think you should make a big deal about it. have them listen to great singers(frank sinatra's vibrato is absolutely gorgeous).
5. EXTREMELY important. kids are like sponges. they soak up anything thats thrown at them(even if you don't think they do ). whenever you can, do what trumpetmike does. bring your students to LIVE performances.

[Bill Scott]

I was just listening to JPR when I started reading this thread. JPR was playing 'Lullaby' with Doc Severinsen on the horn. Such a simple melody, but played with such beauty and grace by Doc. The tone really made the difference---so how do you teach or achieve that?

Let me share with you an eye opening incident at community band rehearsal just this last month. There are 6 of us in the section. Two of us have the resonant, mature sound--the rest don't. Anyway, we're tuning up before rehearsal and the one teenager in the section pulls out this contraption consisting of a wire with a plug on one end and an alligator clip on the other. One end then plugs into one of the small Korg tuners and the padded alligator clip attaches to the bell of the horn.

What's that, I ask?. It's a device which is able to 'sense' the vibrations in the bell of the horn and then 'interprets' the strength of that vibration to tell you when you're are playing exactly in tune.

I was really surprised that anybody would need this as I can quickly tell when I'm in tune by the vibrations I feel in my horn. So, I asked the kid, 'don't you feel your horn vibrate when you play'? He didn't have a clue what I was talking about and neither did four of the other trumpet players---the ones without good sound. Folks, these were adults, one of them is a 5th/6th grade band teacher!

These folks know the mechanics of playing. Except for the teenager, they've been playing for 20 or 25 years, they are adults, they've heard good trumpet players----but the sound isn't there. They don't know how to make the horn ring and play 'in tune' by the feel of the vibrating horn.

I'm wondering if this little device couldn't be used to teach a studen how to make a horn 'sing' with that full mature sound.
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[tknowlton]

[Craig Swartz]

Everyone is correct. It is all in the "ears". If the player knows a great sound from a lesser one and is practicing, he/she will generally strive to accomplish it. The nuance differences one hears as an individual account for the fact that none of us sound the same, even though we may all be capable of doing so. In all my years teaching it has become obvious to me that the last thing many musicians in training strive to develope is the "ear". I've always felt blessed that for the first 8-9 years, I played almost exclusively "by ear" rather than by reading music. (Everyone thought I could read but it was easy for me to fool them, provided I could con someone into playing, or singing the part first.) As a result, I was able to develope strong techinque and range earlier than many, intonation was rarely a problem, and playing was interesting to me because I could literally play anything I wanted, provided I'd heard it. And in any key, too. Get the ears going first.

[guo2]

tknowton:
yes, not many 3rd year players have a mature sound concept. but i dont think that has to do much with age(of course there are exceptions).

[Derek Reaban]

There was a really good post in the Bill Adam forum called when improvement isn’t apparent. Here is a post that I made in response to a really good story by a poster called Grizzle:

[_dcstep]

I think that hearing live performance by great players is imperative. The visceral impact of hearing a great player can be overwhelming. I had my trumpet sound ephiphany at ten, when I heard the great Don Jacoby live, unamplified from about ten-rows back. Wow!! I still hear that sound ringing in my ears fifty years later. I moved from nineth chair to first chair within months of hearing Jacoby.

Don't get me wrong, recordings are great. I wore out two recordings of Tutti's Trumpetsbefore I graduated from high school. I never heard Gozzo live, but thinking of his playing sends chills up my spine. Still, a dose of live trumpet is way more powerful than many hours of listening to recorded music.

Dave
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[trumpetmike]

I took two students up to see Manny Laureano do Mahler 5 last night - they came out just talking about how easy it all sounded - they now know what they are listening for in their own playing.

Sometimes it is that easy

[grumpie38]

Great post Derek!

When I was a kid studying the trumpet--well over 50 years ago--I was enthraled with Harry James. I tried to emulate his sound and style of playing, and although I was far from being 100% successful it must have helped as I played 1st chair in the high school band for all four years, as well as winning scholarships for summer band camps.

Then I started college. The Harry James sound didn't go over too well in the school symphony orchestra, so I changed teachers and went to a guy who I thought was more of a legit player. I became a totally "left brained" player, and instead of being guided by what was coming out of the bell on the trumpet, I concentrated on using "correct" techniques. This was the dumbest thing I ever did in my trumpet playing life as right down the street from where I went to school was Orchestra Hall where Bud Herseth provided a perfect sound model every week. There were also teachers like Arnold Jacobs and Vince Chicowitz turning out trumpet players with incredable sounds, but for some reason that today I can't fathom, I chose to continue thinking that if I just concentrate hard enough on what my chops and stomach muscles should be doing, everything would turn out perfect. As my ancestors used to say, "Ve get too soon oldt and too late schmart".

A little over a year ago, after a 45 year layoff, I decided to start playing again and since the "schmart" part hadn't licked in yet, I was still trying to use the left brained approach which predictably has not produced a good sound consistently. Derek's post about transcribing solos by trumpet players that I dig might very well be the key to making a reasonable comeback. Thank you Derek.
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[Billy B]

[tknowlton]

In high school my trumpet teacher rarely performed for me. I formed my tonal concept from listening to Wynton Marsalis recordings and Canadian Brass recordings. I would describe my tone back then as refined but lacking power and energy.

It was when I went to Interlochen Music camp after my junior year that my ears were opened up. I heard students there who played trumpet like a Mac truck (I mean that in a good way). In other words they played with great power and a tonal presence that I don't think I could have understood from recordings regardless of time or concentration on my part.

I still remember coming back to my little high school band and playing a solo with my new tonal concept and wowing everyone in the room, especially my band director.

I don't think anything can totally compensate for listening to live trumpet-- especially up close.

-----------------------------

I find this whole idea of tonal concept and how the individual shapes his progress by what he wants to hear from himself to be completely fascinating. We are dealing with the human psyche and with highly subjective impulses. -- Else why would someone in their right mind choose to sound like Maynard Ferguson instead of Maurice Andre

Tyler

[janet842]

How many 15 year old's are playing on pro level horns? Trumpets can really be a limiting factor. It's hard to get a good concept of sound if you're playing on something that has all the resonance of a plumbing pipe -- and using a poor mouthpiece on top of it!

[_dcstep]

[petere]

You ask some good questions up above. One thing you might do is to add the playing of DVDs to your class schedules. Listening is good but watching and listening would be even better. Watch Doc Severinsen breath before he blows, see how effortlessly Maynard seemed to hit the high notes, examine together how Tomofei Dokshizer makes such a wonderful sound. Then see if they can transform notes into music. I bet they would improve.

Petere

[PDGray]

In my opinion, I agree with the general ideas being stated here.

A student has to "hear" great players on their instrument. This fixes the idea or model in their head of what they SHOULD sound like. How many of the people on this board heard a Maynard recording and went home and started playing high?? Ok, so most of us cant play like Maynard so that doesnt really work too well, BUT we can play in lower ranges. Take something like Wyntons recording of The Last Rose of Summer. The piece isnt too terribly hard technically, but you can hear his tone and get that idea into a willing students mind. (I recognize that some just wont get it and some just wont care)

I grew up in a place where there werent many opportunities for live concerts. So, until I discovered the recordings I tried to out play the guy next to me and get a better sound. I think this is the route that most young players do consciously or not. They hear "Johnny" sitting 1st chair and start trying to sound like Johnny. So, even if "Johnny" has a bad sound, they emulate it in order to get 1st chair themselves. But if you could interject any other player into that mix and have "Johnny" trying to sound like Herseth or whoever your particular player is. Then things can get much more interesting.

Just my .02

Patrick
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