Raw brass poisoning?

MilesD · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: Raw brass poisoning?

I was reading a thread in here regarding stripping and re-laquering a trumpet, which brings me to my subject of inquery.

I have several large bald spots on the slides on my trumpet where the laquer has worn off. I wasnt aware that something like brass poisoning even exsisted because (correct me if Im wrong) Wynton plays a raw brass Monette?

What are the symptoms of brass posioning? After hearing about this I'm going to wear some thin white flannel trumpet performing gloves each time I play till I can afford to have my baby re-laquered

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oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180

What are the symptoms? Just look at pictures of Miles from the '80s!

Kent

MilesD · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject:

silveryoshii · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject:

i dont know!
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The King of Swing · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject:

stradfreak101 · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject:

I dont really know exactly what the symptoms are of brass poisoning, but I'll tell you this, that a couple of spots of worn lacquer (or silver) will not harm you much in any way of brass poisoning. I think that brass posioning comes out after a long time of long periods of use (daily) and it doesnt show up until a couple of years (unless you might be alergic to it, but that's another thing). But if you have ust a small spot of brass showing up on your trumpet you shouldn't have to worry much because that won't harm you alot and I dont believe that wearing gloves will be necessary (unless you really want to). But just look at all the pros that play on raw brass horns, and almost none of them have ever gotten brass poisoning. But again, this is of my general conclusions so I maybe wrong, if I am, please correct me.
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JasonHarrelson · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:

Brass poisoning is more commonly lead poisoning, which can show symptoms in months or years. I suffered lead poisoning years ago from playing on a raw brass mouthpiece. Use some clear fingernail polish to protect yourself until you can get your horn re-lacquered.

Jason Harrelson
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nieuwguyski · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject:

Jason,

I was under the impression that machining brass, used for mouthpieces, contains a small amount of lead, but that brass sheet and tubing generally don't. Am I misinformed? If so, I'll probably move having two of my trumpets relacquered up the priority list.
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chopissimo · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject:

Until you get the horn re-finished you could clean the exposed areas with a good brass polish product, then apply a few coats of clear car wax. This will protect the surface from oxydation and give it a nice shine.

I wouldn't be worried about the "poisoning" thing, especially if there are only a few bald spots on the trumpet.
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JasonHarrelson · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject:

Actually, you can buy any brass leaded or unleaded. They fall under hundreds of various alloy numbers, but generally speaking almost all brass has lead in it. Is this DANGEROUS? Not to the average person. A small percentage of people are highly sensitive to brass due to the lead, zinc or copper contents and even fewer are actually allergic, but this is uncommon. I have met two trumpet players allergic to brass in all of my life...and I've met quite a few insane trumpeters!

I'm not trying to alarm anyone currently playing on a raw brass horn...you are not in any danger. And if you're worried at all, just buy a leather valve/hand guard and play it safe. I AM CONCERNED THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE PLAYING ON RAW BRASS MOUTHPIECES AND THIS HAS PROVEN TO BE DANGEROUS. It doesn't cost much to have a mouthpiece re-plated and if you're playing on one that has brass showing, you're getting it into your bloodstream at an alarming rate.

I have a friend who plays tuba and he always seems out of it. You'll say something to him and he'll just seem to be floating by in a hot air balloon. He's a nice guy and a great tuba player when he's not zoned out. He's a professional painting contractor in new home construction. He's breathed more fumes than cheech and chong and he never seems to know what's going on. Anyhow, one day at quintet rehearsal he comes over to me and asks if I would recommend re-plating his mouthpiece because it looks like it is down to raw brass. I told him about my nightmare experience with brass poisoning from my raw brass mouthpiece. And he shrugs his shoulders and says, "Well, it doesn't look that bad". That was four years ago and he still hasn't had it re-plated...the rim is pitted raw brass, much worse than when he first showed it to me. And you know something? I wonder if maybe he's always dazed and confused because of his mouthpiece and not his painting job???

Moral of this story? There are some things in this world we CAN do to prevent medical problems! Do not put brass or lead into your mouth, ever!

Jason Harrelson
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MilesD · Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all the responses everyone

Jason

Thanks for your contribution to this thread as the opinion of a trumpet maker/modifier of your calibre is very much appreciated!

I think that guy in your story is running on a few beers short of a six pack (so to speak). I think hes either incredibly lucky or maybe has been affected by the brass poisoning and is mistaking it for paint inhalation. Its a great moral though on his mpc. I think what I am going to do (for now) is to use some clear nail polish to protect myself, and then have my horn re-laquered when I can afford it

BTW Jason I dropped my mpc and chipped it

Theres a very tiny chip out of it near the rim. However there is NO brass showing, just the same silver color of the mpc. Its a holton heim #2. You think Im safe?

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Luke6335J · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:01 am Post subject:

If you are worried, try the clear nail polish, I was having a blow on someones Monette horn today and he had clear nailpolish wherever his hands touched. The other guy had just left it though ...
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Bob Stevenson · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:29 am Post subject:

Raw brass can certainly affect your soft tissue around your mouth with sores,..as I remember all too wel when playing on a bare brass mpc as a kid. my grandfather described it as "canker" and was not surprised at the cause.

Also, brass is an alloy of copper and there is a known link to the onset of epilepsy by latent epileptics handling copper items repeatedly.l

Tim_ · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:44 am Post subject:

According to certain sources at my school, *cough*The High Brass Instructor*Cough* Our band director has some slight brass poisoning. He's played trumpet for many, many years, but apparently, the brass eventually will cause problems with teeth. I can't say I'm really sure of any of this, but its the closest I can answer.
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Locutus2k · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:16 am Post subject:

Maybe using a good leather or vynil valve guard (like the ones from LSC) will eliminate this problem (and protect the trumpet too).
Just my 2 cents

Luigi

oldlou · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: Raw brass

My teacher and I both use mouthpieces that have the rims worn down to raw brass, and have used these for an extended amount of time with no ill effects. My teacher is the principal trumpeter in our local symphony orchestra, and has been for the last 32 years. It seems to me that neither of us is allergic to raw brass contact. I also play on several trumpets/cornets that are stripped of their lacquer. Because I don't like the feel of ERODED raw brass on the rim of any mouthpiece I have decided to go in with a trumpet playing buddy to send a few of my mouthpieces along with some of his for replating. I am going to have one of mine plated with gold, as I have heard good things about gold plated rims and want to experiment with this plating. The other three that I am sending out will be plated all in silver. If I am suffiently happy with the gold, I will send the other three back for an overlay of gold. Time will tell.

OLDLOU>>

swordfishtrombone · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:01 am Post subject:

Tristan the man 2000 · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:14 am Post subject:

That mustbe the reason you get a pair of gloves when you buy a TSO on ebay! The plating must be so cheap that they are concerned about liitle 5th graders starting band and getting brass poisoning.
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MilesD · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:45 am Post subject:

Hey Tristan

Ya and I have a pair of those too

Hey guys

A lot more responses & stories and a lot more help, thanks

Seems that a lot are allergic and a lot arent. I did try and Google it but really ended up with a lot of rhetoric. The more common thing is 'lead' posioning and funnily enough lead is in trumpets as well (so Ive been told).

The one user who said that a canker sore is a symptom was of real use

Like I said Im gonna clear nailpolish the spots on my horn that are raw brass till I get some $$$ to re-laquer my horn. It wont be till probably after Christmas. This time of year is always financially tight because of Christmas and birthdays in my family. Not to mention that I have to save up $$$ to buy a Nintendo Wii.

Im heading out to the Doctors now to get something for this cold I have and think I'll drop an inquery on what he says on brass/lead posioning

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I don't care if a dude is green with pink breath, as long as he can swing. Miles Davis

Trumpet: Red Maestro and Yamaha
Mouthpiece: Holton Heim

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject:

Here's a link to one of the MSDS sheets for brass (below). There are a number of them related to different alloys (types of brass). Some are more toxic than others; not all contain lead (but are still hazardous).

Most of the info applies to inhalation of the dust; a few MSDS sheets discuss long-term exposure via the skin (aggravated by sweat). I don't think they had mouthpieces in mind... I discussed this with a doctor (toxicologist) a few years ago, and he confirmed that long-term exposure to raw brass is dangerous to everyone, and that the absorption and tolerance is dependent upon the person. So, some may go for years and never have a problem, some may experience symptoms in hours. He verified that everybody is sensitive to it, and since the effects are cumulative those who go for years may suddenly experience acute symptoms. The symptoms may be masked by other things (liver/kidney pains etc. can be caused by many things and are often just diagnosed as "stomach aches"). I don't recall all the symptoms, but it was a fairly long list, from rashes to shaking and muscle problems as well as internal organ (kidney/liver) damage. He did note that the common acid-dip for cleaning causes problems if the metal is not very thoroughly washed, and suggested rinsing with distilled water and treating with a neutralizing agent any raw brass instrument before playing it. He also suggested gloves, but noted that, unless they seal out moisture, they may not help.

http://www.olinbrass.com/brassmsds/msds_b04.pdf

HTH -- all I can recall off the top of my head! My horns are all silver and gold...

- Don
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