The Crusade Against Pedal Notes

[Bill Bryant]

I was a long-time Claude Gordon student. I hope my comments about pedal tones are not offensive here.

IMO, pedals are totally useless unless they are completely connected to the 'normal' notes using the same flexible embouchure. I do not count a pedal tone as worth a dime unless I can play it and my highest note without re-setting my chops. BTW my pedal C is perfectly in tune and sounds huge and resonant and is completely connected to the rest of my range.

Here's my theory. I may be wrong. In order to connect the very lowest notes with the rest of your range, the pedals must be played with as much flesh inside the mpc as possible. If a lot of flesh has to work its way out of the mpc before pedal will sound, it means that the lips don't vibrate easily. When you get a big fat pedal C happening, using your normal embouchure, it means that you are getting lots and lots of easy, big vibration inside a tiny space while keeping lots of flesh still inside there.

Well, I think we can all agree that getting lots of flesh inside the mpc while keeping an easy vibration and not choking off is the goal of playing high. At least that's one way of looking at it. So what I do when I play pedals is train myself not to spread my chops, even at the very bottom, so that I have a very closed yet very vibrant 'set' up high.

I've heard countless trumpeters playing horrible sounds down low and somehow thinking this will give them high notes. The kind of pedals that will give you high notes, if you can do them (and perhaps for many it's impossible and hence the controversy), is the kind that is actually just another octave or so playable range that you don't distort to get down to, that you play in tune with good sound, that you play with all your lip still in there, that you play with resonance.

It's too late to edit this and see if it makes sense. I have to teach tomorrow. Good luck to you all.

[KingSilverSonic]

Here's is my take based on my limited understanding of pedal tones. I also note that I got into this initially by clicking on "Latest Trumpet Forums:" and had never heard of Reinhardt until now. I certainly had no position that I was attempting to push, but was simply giving my opinion.

I started practicing pedals after reading about Claude Gordon, and then purchasing his books. For me, one thing that I noticed was that as I practiced pedal tones I began to have more control over my trumpet. I related this to flying. When I was getting my private license I spent hours in slow flight and in steep turns. The purpose of this was not to prepare me to go cross-country at a speed just a hair above stall speed but to teach me to be able to control the aircraft at a very slow speed. Same with steep turns. When I started doing these I got disoriented, couldn't control the aircraft and once even vomited. But, with a lot of practice I can now do them if necessary. As mentioned, I began to notice that I was gaining more control over my trumpet when I practiced pedal tones. For me, the more control I have over this instrument the better player I will be. I do not view pedal tones as "the" magic bullet to make me the best player in the universe, and I will likely not give a concert in the pedal range . But, I will continue to practice them just as I will go out and practice slow flight and steep turns to make me a better, and safer, pilot.
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Richard

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[airdyn]

[quote="airdyn"]

[Pops]

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Rich, Dave, Chris...



I think that one thing that might be helpful here is if one of you explained how you see pedals destroying an embouchure.

Yes I can and did look at the check list but I think that detailing what a yes answer in each question really means would be helpful to some of those questioning your viewpoint.


i.e.
Dropping the jaw to play the pedals.
Well if they place a finger on their lips (at rest) and drop the jaw they will feel the lips pull apart and the lower lip get thinner. If we think about how the mouthpiece tries to hold the lips in place then it is easy to see how this action makes it hard to play back into the normal or upper register without resetting the embouchure.


There are some answers here that border on "because "Doc" said so". That is a very 1950 idea. In years past children were brought up to NOT question but that was then and this is now. I really think some of the problems in this thread and I KNOW some of the problems between you and me in the past were centered around this issue.

I think Mr. Reinhardt was a brilliant brass teacher but I also think that explaining WHY he didn't like pedals... doesn't lessen his legacy. I think that the reasons are sound and when given would add immeasurably to this. I also think that this is what PH was alluding to in his post here.


Pops

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[mcgowanm]

Why do baseball players warm-up with a weight on their bat? Why do golfers stretch with the golf club behind their back? Why do hockey players ride exercise bikes? Why do athletes now a days do more and more training than before using machine and/or exercise other than their sport?

I think it is absurd to say that a mouthpiece can only be used one way or you can't re-focus back to playing the trumpet. Pedal tones (even pedal tone slides ACROSS the lips) have help me tremendously is maintaining flexibility during weeks of 8 shows a week playing touring broadway shows or weeks of playing with a major symphony orchestra.

Would I assign them to a kid?? no

But they have provided chop-problem-free YEARS of playing even with demanding schedules.
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mike mcgowan

[razeontherock]

I look forward to answers to Pop's questions.

I could also add a list of benefits I get from playing pedals that violate the (seemingly good) principles set forth in the post just before Pop's last post, but I'll refrain here for now, for thread integrity, except to state that it quickly combats excess tension very well.

I think this whole issue deserves to be thought through on an individual basis ...

Ray
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"And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details

[airdyn]

[308WIN]

Ok, but what other changes have been made that could have contributed to improvement? I mean surely eliminating pedals is not the only thing being changed. Also, another factor is that any sort of change of routine can have drastic effects on playing. For many of these students improvement would have been likely whether pedals were continued or not.

I would be interested to see what effect it would have on several players (pedal players) if they ONLY stopped pedals and changed NOTHING else in their routine.

I believe Schlossberg used the adage "a few drops will heal, and a spoonful will kill" (or something to that effect). There are many technical excercises that are like this, be it too much loud practice, too much soft, etc.

In my warmup, I use pedals for a MAX of about 2 minutes. That's it. I find it helps stimulate blood flow to the muscles (particularly the chin area).

[trumpetart]

[Pops]

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Hi Dave;

My first teacher was a student of Clarke. Believe me "Because I say so" was BIG.

I am NOT saying it is wrong. I just think that WHY isn't a bad question. I am glad to see you think so too.

I could tell from the tone of earlier posts that you would be open to WHY.

I have some whys as to NOT using pedals. I am interested to hear ones based on Reinhardts teachings. It will be very informative and I will of course steal the info and spread it.
I try to always remember to give credit to the original source.


I tell you what. I will go into the CG forum and ask WHY there. Not HOW, just WHY. Maybe they will be willing to field that question as well.



I agree with you about some of the things going on in schools and it bothers me as well.


Have a great afternoon.

Pops
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[Derek Reaban]

airdyn,

In response to a message from Pops you wrote:

[TrumpetAce]

Paging Mr. Hollywood. I'm sure a lot of us would like you to jump in here.

T.A.

[308WIN]

Just to add to Derek's post. Chris is who taught me how to play pedals..
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كافر

9/11/01 Never forget those who died. Never forget those who killed them.

[Derek Reaban]

I was curious to see if I could find out why Reinhardt adopted the phrase:

"Positively no pedal tones on trumpet while under my tutelage."


I looked in the Encyclopedia of the Pivot System and found the story that I think led to this idea and think it’s worth including here:

From Page 8 in the Appendix:

[airdyn]

[BeboppinFool]

From a TH topic called Doc Reinhardt's Thoughts on Pedal Tones from September 12 2002, posted by Mr.Hollywood (at that time his username was Hairy James) here in the Reinhardt Forum:
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Anyone who studied with Doc knows that on your first lesson he would tell you "Positively NEVER practice pedal tones while you are under my tutelage." Along with this he would usually tell you a story about Herbert L.Clarke. He said when he was very young that his father used to take him to hear the Sousa band featuring H.L.Clarke. He said that Clarke was always very gracious and loved children. One day while he was speaking to Clarke, he said he heard some very strange squeaks and flatulent sounds coming from a nearby tent. He asked Clarke, "Is that a cornet or a clarinet?" Clarke told him that it was a cornet player named Harold Stambaugh. Doc asked him what Harold was doing, making all those strange noises(pedal tones) on cornet. Clarke said that when Harold did that he could get a few high notes to come out immediately after his pedal work, but that when he got on the stand he had a lot of trouble tonguing.

When he finished telling his story Doc would comment, "That was thirty years before Maggio was kissing rosebuds in the coal mines of Italy and transplanted it to Hollywood." Meaning that pedal tones had been around way before Louis Maggio had brought them from Italy to Hollywood C.A in the 1940's.

Doc's main complaint about pedal tones was that they where produced without the all important legs of the inner embouchure, meaning in more simple terms that the pedal tone embouchure is too flabby, too rolled out and that there isn't enough mouthpiece pressure being used to stabilize the embouchure formation. All of this leads to tonguing problems and multiple embouchure formations.

Doc would tell me that the second he heard someone single tongue he could tell if they were a "pedal tone addict". Another problem with pedal tones is that the great majority of players are incapable of doing them without using two embochures. One of Doc's absolute rules was: ONE EMBOUCHURE ALL OVER THE HORN!

Despite all that I've said here, there are some pedal tone success stories, but you can be sure that they are all type IIIA's who posess very high mouthpiece placements. For all the rest of you lower placement types all I can say is........ BE CAREFUL. Chris
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I spoke to Chris on the phone today; he's been in Atlantic City all week without computer access, and would've enjoyed chiming in on this topic. I told him he had been mentioned, and he told me about this post which I looked up when I got home.

I'm sure this topic will resurface from time to time, and I'm sure that opposing forces on both sides of the pedal tone controversy will want to defend all that they know to be right and good.

My job here is to keep reminding people that this forum is for people to find out about the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt, not a place for them to come in here and tell us how wrong we are and how perfect they are.
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Rich Willey—Click here to hear my SoundCloud clips

[Bill Bryant]

I agree with anyone who opposes pedals played with a differenct embouchure. I disagree with anyone who opposes pedals played with a normal embouchure, played in tune with a good sound, played as just another octave of notes totally connected to everything else. Just last night I was slurring arpeggios from pedal C up to high C and back down several times in one breath, making sure I played with a nice full sound on every note and making sure I played it all with one embouchure on one blow.

I support anyone who crusades against "pedal" tones done any other way--as splatty noises using trick settings, as sounds disconnected from the rest of the register, etc.

I oppose anyone who crusades against adding an octave of usable notes at the bottom of his range that are totally connected, not "trick" in the least, that can be tongued, slurred, and generally played like any other note.

Perhaps some embouchure formations make "my" kind of pedal playing impossible. With my embouchure--lips wet, mpc more on the top lip, pressure mostly on the top lip, airstream a bit down in the upper register, pretty much straight ahead in the low register, moving jaw--pedals are easily played as nothing more than a few more low notes.

Could it be that the pedal controversy is base on (1) different definitions/approaches to making low sounds and (2) different embouchures that either can or can't play low easily?

One of these days I'm gonna have to record my pedal arpeggios and put them up for the Rheinhart folks to analyze, along with photos of my face doing them. My lip doesn't roll out hardly at all down there. My face looks almost exactly the same on low C and pedal C. The only difference is that my jaw is a bit lower on the pedal C.

My best wishes to everyone, even those I disagree with. Let's keep this helpful and educational, not personal.

[Wilktone]

Short of running a longitudinal study of many trumpet players to produce a statistically viable pool of subjects, we can only speculate and offer anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence in and of itself is difficult, because there are often other factors involved that aren't considered. For example:

[oxleyk]

So, going waaaay back to the original post, is it acceptable to use a trombone or trombone mouthpiece instead of doing pedals? That way the player isn't doing any contortions in order to play pedals.

Kent

[Bill Bryant]