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airdyn
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 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: The Crusade Against Pedal Notes |
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| Quote: | | Maynard said that playing t-bone had the same effect on his trumpet chops as practicing pedal tone -- relaxed air passages, big volume, carefull listening to pitch. He said that he didn't use pedals because he got the same benefit from the 'bone. |
This quote from a previous post on a different forum has prompted me to dispute all the claims of the benefits of pedal tones and get Reinhardt followers to respond with their horror stories of pedal tone usage. Granted, the quote stating Maynard's views of his preference for the trombone vs. pedal tones on the small trumpet mouthpiece ( the small size open to so many lip and embouchure distortions and interpretations as to how to play pedal tones correctly) does not endorse or condone their usage, the pedal question should make for some lively discussions here. Most forums on The Trumpet Herald support the use of pedal tones.
I know that Chris (Mr. Hollywood), who possesses probably one of the finest high registers I have ever heard, has a trombone mouthpiece "adapted" to fit his trumpet and follows Maynard's feeling of getting the lips to vibrate fully and relaxing the chops without the tightrope razor's edge of taking the "Pedal note route" on the small trumpet mouthpiece. In brass playing, where excessive movement can be so destructive, especially in the lower placement types and certain delicate downstream embouchures, distortions can spell the difference between success and failure.
Reinhardt has stated that any pedal note player was not welcomed under his tuteladge and definitely was on a Crusade Against Pedal Notes.
Dave S. |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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Location: Bloomington Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Not DSR, but FWIW, Mr. Adam did pedal notes with many of his students in the '60s and '70s. However, he virtually never uses them since about 1975 or so. He told me that he originally found that there was often a short term improvement which stemmed from getting players to relax counterproductive tensions and restricted airflow. However, As Dave states, the down side was that this caused many people to distort and manipulate things to a very negative end and in a great many instances the pedals cause mouthpiece placement to be totally screwed up...usually by slipping too low.
I can't wait to see what you DSR guys say about this. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Interesting that I find playing pedals correctly (thru Gordon's material) helps me keep a higher mpc placement. I also play trombone, and am able to play the notes between low Bb and pedal Bb. I don't know if this will make sense to anyone else, but the benefit to me is it helps me keep a looser, more vibrant high set. Also, transferring the feeling of the air to the regular playing range helps me feel relaxed and powerful.
I like them 
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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Location: Bloomington Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Remember that this is a dedicated forum. There may or may not be right ways to do things, but there are ways that Doc would say were right or wrong for him and his students. That is what we should discuss in here.
In bringing up some of my experience with Mr. Adam and pedal tones I was trying to present some stimulus for discussion, not argue the validity of DSR and his teachings.
I still can't wait to hear what Mssrs. Sheetz, LaBarbera, Willey, et al say about their experiences and Doc's take on pedals. |
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PivotBone
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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I think it is important to remember that some IIIA's (Arturo Sandoval is a good example) are able to get away with pedals because they already place very high on the lips and the are able to get away with pedals with less distorting. However, I've seen Arturo in concert and you can see that there IS a difference in his embouchure for these pedal notes. Keep in mind also, that the Maggio system, which is based in large part on pedal tones, states that you need to place the mouthpiece 2/3 upper lip and 1/3 lower lip (most often a IIIA) and that the pedal tones will help move the mouthpiece into the proper, higher position. Now this may well work to an extent for some IIIAs who are already placing high but could absolutely DESTROY the upstream types!!
For those of us thinking that maybe pedal tones wouldn't be such a bad idea for a IIIA, it may be interesting to note that Doc said he could tell if a player played pedal tones by how good his single tonguing was. I think there is something in that statement that is worth considering. Also, I think it is important to consider how many fantastic players play all areas of the horn without playing pedal tones AND how many succesful upstream performers do you know that play pedal tones a la Maggio/Gordon? I don't know any... |
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AverageJoe
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I cannot even begin to address where Reinhardt stood on the matter of pedal tones, but I can say without any hesitation that they have helped me connect everything from low to high. I was taught how to properly use them by Jim Manley. I don't dwell on pedals...I only do them long enough to get the lips lined up and the air stream relaxed and energized. I know I'm ready to go when I can transition from the pedals to the upper register smoothly, which often takes as little as 30 seconds and never more than say 5 min on a rough day.
It stands to reason that too much of anything can be harmful. It is all about the right tool at the right time for the right purpose...
Paul
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airdyn
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| AverageJoe wrote: | I was taught how to properly use them by Jim Manley.
Paul |
Paul...I would be curious to know how the "legs of the inner embouchure" and the "hermetic seal" are not disturbed by this proper use that Mr. Manley taught you, if you would be so kind to share this information on this forum. I appreciate your post and think it is the most sensible one I have heard to date on pedal playing , especially since you limit all pedal playing to 5 minutes or less a day. Other than knowing what Type you are, in Reinhardt Classifications, how does you Pivot work in the pedal register? Most if not all pedal note players "switch types" down there by opening up the aperture and simultaneously dropping the jaw.
I know that this Forum is one that follows only Reinhardt Principles, but as they say " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Well, show me a person that is out of danger. Since so many other disciplines endorse pedal tones, my curiousity wants to know the reason for this, and at the same time let the pedal note players know where the danger lies.
Thank you,
Dave |
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AverageJoe
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| airdyn wrote: | | AverageJoe wrote: | I was taught how to properly use them by Jim Manley.
Paul |
Paul...I would be curious to know how the "legs of the inner embouchure" and the "hermetic seal" are not disturbed by this proper use that Mr. Manley taught you, if you would be so kind to share this information on this forum. I appreciate your post and think it is the most sensible one I have heard to date on pedal playing , especially since you limit all pedal playing to 5 minutes or less a day. Other than knowing what Type you are, in Reinhardt Classifications, how does you Pivot work in the pedal register? Most if not all pedal note players "switch types" down there by opening up the aperture and simultaneously dropping the jaw.
I know that this Forum is one that follows only Reinhardt Principles, but as they say " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Well, show me a person that is out of danger. Since so many other disciplines endorse pedal tones, my curiousity wants to know the reason for this, and at the same time let the pedal note players know where the danger lies.
Thank you,
Dave |
Thanks, Dave --
I'll try to answer your questions, but keep in mind that I am not a Reinhardt student. I have gleaned tidbits over the years from talking shop with Paul Garrett (TH screenname "scream"), and I have used the article on David Wilken's website to help my limited understanding as I composed this response.
With that disclaimer, I'll attempt to answer as best as I can. I appear to go between Type IIIB/A because I shift between the two Pivot types. I use Pivot Type Two in the "money register" (between low C and C above the staff - 2 ledger lines). I use Pivot One in the extremes -- from low C down to F# (and on down to Pedal C when I go down there), and from C above the staff on up (my consistent, usable range is double G - 4 ledger lines). I worked for years to find the best way, and quite on my own, I settled into this system, for better or worse. The bottom line is consistency of sound, and this system has given me the best results in the long run. FWIW -- I have a cupid's bow on my upper lip that dictates the need to change in the extreme registers.
To help confirm, here's a link to a couple of videos of me playing with my quintet recently. It might not be clear enough to make a distinction, but it's worth a shot. I'm the dude in the yellow shirt with the shaved head. The person who videotaped us was fixated with the trombone player, but there are a few pans over in my direction:
http://www.gsubrass.com/Podcast/Podcast.html
Now, let's talk pedals. Going into the pedals for me is an exercise in establishing the most flexible setting for the lips -- aligning them in such a way that they are supple enough to maintain maximum response and vibration through my entire range...Nothing more. Maybe pedals are effective for me because I use both pivot types effectively in my playing?? I don't know for sure. I guess my extrapolation would be this: Pedals help me establish an elastic setting inside the mouthpiece, while the pivot maintains that setting through the registers...a means to an end rather than an end in itself. Incidentally, my jaw does not drop when I extend down there...if anything, my jaw moves very slightly forward and up (i.e. slightly more closed). I also practice the pedals pianissimo, not FF like Maggio. Response and alignment are my goals, then taking those two things into the rest of the range.
I hope this helps you out. I understand that it might not be agreeable to all, but it has worked for me.
Great topic!
Paul
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Last edited by AverageJoe on Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Dave, I'm thrilled that you posted this topic. I get so tired of hearing the pedal tone guys saying that you have to play pedals "correctly" to benefit from them. (What does that mean???????)
I have not played a pedal tone since 1978, the year I first went to see Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt. I do not miss them at all.
When I was doing my masters at Manhattan School of Music ('99 through '01), my teacher was Byron Stripling, and he wanted me to do some notes below the low F# and told me that I could bend those low notes if I wanted to. Curious to see if those "bent" low notes helped (not that flapping, flatulent sound) I went ahead and tried some of that. I didn't see any benefit whatsoever. If anything, it distorted my embouchure, and I abandoned them quite soon.
Also, during the summer of 2000, I went to see what Laurie Frink had to offer since many New York trumpeters were singing her praises. She wanted me to do pedal tones. I asked if I could substitute some bass trumpet playing instead, and she said that was fine. I did that. I faithfully followed what she gave me, and at first experienced a noticeable improvement in my endurance (after a week or so) but after two or three months (I saw her about every three weeks) my response began to get very brittle and unpliable. I was shooting airballs over the D above high C and decided to go back to my Reinhardt drills. After about three days I had no more trouble with airballs, and haven't gone back to the Frink/Caruso stuff.
I play bass trumpet still (sold the valve bone several years ago) and recall Reinhardt telling me that the pedal register of the trombone was a valid part of the instrument's range capabilities. Even still, I have to move my trombone mouthpiece way up on my chops to get pedal tones on bass trumpet, so I have elected to not play pedal tones on bass trumpet, either.
I recall Reinhardt telling a story (I don't remember all the names) about when his dad took him to hear Sousa's band with the great Arthur Pryor and Herbert L. Clarke (both of whom he got to meet) and he remembered hearing some funny noises. Doc asked Clarke what those noises were, and Clarke said "Oh that's ________ (can't remember the name), he plays pedal tones." Clarke immediately said that he had tried pedals and while he got a bit of "instant gratification," the long-term benefits were non-existent for him.
[Chris LaBarbera remembers that story much better because he still has one of his Reinhardt tapes where Doc told it to him.]
If somebody comes to me for lessons, I make sure they see that sentence, "Positively no pedal tones on trumpet while under my tutelage" that Reinhardt stated on many occasions. If a guy comes to me and wants to play pedals after I've cautioned him against them, that's his business, but he'd better not say that I told him it was okay to play pedals.
If somebody wants to play pedals who has not come to me for instruction, I say go for it! Maybe eventually I'll get some of his gigs that his broken-down embouchure can't handle. After all, it takes years and years of correct practice to have outstanding results (unless you're just "gifted"), but years and years of incorrect or "bad" habits will eventually take their toll, guaranteed.
I'd be willing to bet that most pedal tone proponents aren't that old. Wait'll they get to be 40 or 50 . . . especially if they're not a 3A, the one type that seems to be able to "get away" with them. I'd love to hear the ages of some of the pedal advocates, and how long they've been playing pedals. Of course, we may never know what type they are . . . c'est la vie.
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PhattyRoses
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | Interesting that I find playing pedals correctly (thru Gordon's material) helps me keep a higher mpc placement. |
As I was reading through these posts again, this line stuck out to me. Notice how he says it helps him keep a "higher mpc placement." For those players how need a LOW placement, how could doing exercises that force the mouthpiece up on the lips help them? |
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airdyn
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: |
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[quote For those players how need a LOW placement, how could doing exercises that force the mouthpiece up on the lips help them?[/quote]
It seems evident that non-Reinhardt visitors to this Forum are getting the idea. There are 5 Physical playing types and 4 sub-types. Of these 9 types, certain exercises (or methods, if you wish) just don't work with all or possibly any of them. A case in point is the above quote. The Type IV's will be destroyed by using pedal tones.
Another illustration...with the so-called Tongue Controlled Embouchure, this was taught by Dr. Reinhardt to those who possessed short, stubby, corn-row lower teeth and/or a very long lower lip and was Tongue Type III and IV's saving grace. [See the Encyclopedia for all of the Embouchure types and all of the accompanying Tongue Types] Other than those with this teeth set-up (being rare), any tongue interference with the lips themselves, other than to lubricate them, was advised by Doc to keep the tongue away from the lips. According to Reinhardt Principles, there are two main playing factors. 1. The Embouchure and 2. The Breathing (Air) with the Tongue as a refining factor for those two.
There are a myriad of things that work for the particular type that a player is, and a myriad of things that DON"T work as well. Knowing this is invaluable for the individual and for the teacher to know as well. So what is good for the goose is not always good for gander, as the saying goes.
Dave |
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AverageJoe
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| BeboppinFool wrote: | | Dave, I'm thrilled that you posted this topic. I get so tired of hearing the pedal tone guys saying that you have to play pedals "correctly" to benefit from them. (What does that mean???????). . . . |
Rich --
I can completely empathise with your plight, and I believe it to be a valid reason to stay completely away from pedals. I certainly wouldn't advocate them for everyone. There are plenty of players who really have no need to even consider them, and plenty more who might actually be messed up by using them. If anyone experiences negative results from doing pedals, then they should stop immediately!
I've done a ton of thinking about this over the last couple of days, and I think I have a clear way of communicating all of the details of my own use of pedals. In my my own journey as a player, I've personally heard many different "correct" ways, including, but not limited to --
1. Rolling the lips out of their normal playing position. I disagree with this, BTW, as it creates a completely different embouchure to achieve the result...why do this?
2. Dropping the jaw and opening gap between the teeth. This may maintain the mouthpiece placement, but it significantly changes the pressure points (I believe DSR would call them the "legs", yes?). Not as extreme as #1, but this does distort your normal embouchure. Again -- why?
3. Maintaining your normal lip and jaw setting, the lips become more elastic through the gradual process of expanding the pedal range. This is what I did, and not surprisingly, I think it is most correct.
Anytime you change your setting in order to achieve something, you aren't doing yourself any favors. In addition, some methods advocate a very forceful airstream and loud volume when exploring pedals, and I must respectfully disagree, at least from my own experience. Changing the setting and blow might achieve the notes in the pedal register more quickly, but how does any of that translate to what your normal playing? I fail to see the benefit, other than hastily developing a limited-use embouchure to play a range that you will almost never use in a musical setting (unless you're into avant-garde, aleatory, or some other style that sometimes calls for such special effects/parlor tricks).
The goal for me is increased elasticity in the lips FOR MY NORMAL SETTING, AND ON A NORMAL AIRSTREAM. I have found that when approached in this way, it is possible to transfer this increased elasticity into the rest of my playing. As I mentioned earlier, I have a cupids bow on my upper lip, and I have struggled mightily in the past with response, intonation, and purity/power of sound in the low register. Pedals have helped create a situation where the effect of the cupid's bow is minimized. FWIW, I don't extend past pedal C (the fundamental). Not much use to go any lower than that IMO. Jim Manley worked with me on approaching the pedal C using the following progression of exercises:
1. Going down chromatically, using fingerings all the way down. I stayed on this exercise, playing pedal C 1-2-3 to start, and gradually reduced the fingerings until I could play it open. Then I moved to #2.
2. As an extended lip-bending exercise. Start open, but throw valves down when I couldn't bend down any further. Gradually reduce fingerings until this was all open and smooth, then on to #3.
3. Going down chromatically using no fingerings (all open).
NOW FOR THE CAVEAT EMPTOR:
Through the process of my posting in this thread, I have begun to re-evaluate things. I mention above that the effects of the cupids bow are now minimized, but they aren't gone completely.
Dave sent me a nice email telling me that according to the video clips, he sees me as a firm IIIB. I responded to his email, and I would like to post what I wrote in the spirit of continued improvement in my own playing. I would love to hear your suggestions regarding my thoughts here...from a guy who has had great results with pedals, but still has room to get better. Let me know what you think:
| AverageJoe email to Dave Sheetz wrote: | Thanks, Dave --
Its good to know I'm a solid IIIB. This thread has really gotten me thinking about the concept of the pivot, and I'd like to pick your brain if you don't mind...
After some in-depth reviewing in front of a mirror since my first post in your thread, it seems like I have a crossover area down low where I can use either pivot -- low C - A -- funny that in the video, this is exactly the range you get to see (well, technically it is a low G on C-tpt, but that's just semantics). Is this overlap normal for some? More to the point, would Doc ever advise it?
My cupid's bow has always posed issues with response, intonation, and power, particularly in the low register. Using pedal tones as I described, I have learned to negotiate these issues very successfully, but even at 90-95% effectiveness, it still means that 5-10% the issues are still there. Unacceptable for me at this point, and I have been at this plateau for about 4-5 years now.
As I mentioned in my post, I instinctively learned and developed Pivot 1 over the years to deal with certain situations. Pedals have helped me to refine the ability to switch pivots for those times, but as I said, my success is not 100%. When I approach the lower register from above, I will likely stay in Pivot 2, unless there is a need and opportunity to change pivots along the way. As you can conclude from here, the situations where I need to switch and cannot do it effectively constitute the 5-10% where there is a problem -- sometimes airballs, and sometimes notes that lack power and core because the cupid's bow interferes with the lip vibration. For extended low-range playing, I will often use Pivot 1 exclusively, such as when I practice the Carmen excerpt.
What would Doc advise regarding my pivot, based on the info above. If you need more description, let me know. I've tried to go about it logically in the past -- Pedals have helped greatly, but if there is a way to get things 100% smooth throughout, I'd be willing to experiment. In addition to the pedals (and I don't do them every day at this point...only on days where my lips feel a bit stiff). I work in and out of the low register using flexibility studies, flow studies, and articulation exercises (Irons, Clarke, Cichowicz, Gekker and Arbans mainly). |
I look forward to your input. This is a fantastic potential learning opportunity for all of us -- I might just be the "perfect" guinea pig for a few experiments. At the very least, we get to explore a controversial and misunderstood aspect of modern pedagogy!
Thanks again,
Paul Poovey
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maynard-46
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: The Crusade Against Pedal Notes |
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| Quote: | | I'd be willing to bet that most pedal tone proponents aren't that old. Wait'll they get to be 40 or 50 . . . especially if they're not a 3A, the one type that seems to be able to "get away" with them. I'd love to hear the ages of some of the pedal advocates, and how long they've been playing pedals. Of course, we may never know what type they are . . . c'est la vie. |
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Hi Rich!
OK...I'll bite!  I'm 60 years old and have been doing pedal tones since 1967 when I began my studies with Carmine...and at this point still possess a pretty good double G (eventhough I don't concentrate on the upper register NEARLY as much as I used to a few years ago!). I studied with him for approximately 4 years. I can only speak of MY experience but I feel pedals helped/help me immensely...they certainly DID NOT harm me in any way!  To this day I still do them. When I instruct private students I also incorporate them into their lessons when I feel they're ready and when I feel they will benifit from doing them.
Carmine had MANY ways (exercises) involving pedal tones. The ones that did the most for me, in regards to flexiblity and relaxing me, were the ones (usually arpeggios) where you begin playing in your "normal" register and they take you down in the pedal tone register and end up back in your "normal" register again...all without removing the piece from your face and doing this all in one breath! The exercises keep expanding as to the note that you begin on (highest note) and the one you turnaround on (lowest note). Typically (depending on how much air you can sustain!  ) the exercises can start you on high C (and above) to below double pedal C...then back up.
I'm NOT saying that pedal tones are for everyone..."different strokes", I guess...but then again neither are BE, TCE, Stamp, Reinhardt, etc., etc.
BTW...being unfamiliar with the Rienhardt numbering syetem...what is a "3A" player?????  I've been called alot of things in my life...maybe I'm one!!!!  peace!
Butch |
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airdyn
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: The Crusade Against Pedal Notes |
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| Quote: | | I'm 60 years old and have been doing pedal tones since 1967 when I began my studies with Carmine...and at this point still possess a pretty good double G (eventhough I don't concentrate on the upper register NEARLY as much as I used to a few years ago!). I studied with him for approximately 4 years. I can only speak of MY experience but I feel pedals helped/help me immensely...they certainly DID NOT harm me in any way! :roll: To this day I still do them. When I instruct private students I also incorporate them into their lessons when I feel they're ready and when I feel they will benifit from doing them. |
Just a thought...I have a brother-in-law who has smoked 2-3 packs of cigarettes a day since youth and is doing fine at 92. Any lesson here? Some people are just lucky to have dodged the bullet.
Dave |
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Irving
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: Pedal Tones |
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Dave, Anything in excess is going to be detrimental. Certainly, pedal tones, if done too much, will do more harm than good. What about high notes? We all know that high notes can be very damaging as well, when overdone. As far as Caruso and pedal tones go, I believe that he recommended doing 2 exercises a day,(as written in MCFB) and following those with a 2 octave chromatic scale to "reestablish the embouchure".
Some of the great cornet soloists of yesteryear actually played in the pedal register, as well as in the upper register. It would be interesting to find out whether or not these players ran into difficulties because they used pedal tones. |
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maynard-46
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: The crusade against pedal tones |
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| Quote: | | Some people are just lucky to have dodged the bullet |
I don't feel that I've dodged any "bullet" as you speak of...they just worked/work FOR ME, made my playing much better, and I TOTALLY believe in their positive benefits. If they didn't work for you, or if you don't believe in them...I'm sorry! I don't really get on with a pivot system either but, like I said..."different strokes for".
Butch |
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_TrumpeT_
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Just wondering, what do Reinhardt students do when they see pedal tones in music? (like some of the Mozart symphony or Hummel concerto if I remember correctly)
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_TrumpeT_
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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AverageJoe, regarding points 1 and 2 of correct practice of pedal tones I thnk that sounds similar to what BE and Gordon's materials teach respectively (although I'm not too sure as I don't use either of the two). I'm sure both had their own logics behind it.
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AverageJoe
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| Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: The Crusade Against Pedal Notes |
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| maynard-46 wrote: | | . . . . The ones that did the most for me, in regards to flexiblity and relaxing me, were the ones (usually arpeggios) where you begin playing in your "normal" register and they take you down in the pedal tone register and end up back in your "normal" register again...all without removing the piece from your face and doing this all in one breath! The exercises keep expanding as to the note that you begin on (highest note) and the one you turnaround on (lowest note). Typically (depending on how much air you can sustain! ) the exercises can start you on high C (and above) to below double pedal C...then back up. . . . |
Thanks for the reminder, Butch -- all of the exercises I listed above ascend back to low C and in one breath. I added my own twist as well, very similar to what you descibe doing with Carmine. Once you get yourself down there and back up in one breath, you pause to breathe through your nose (maintain the set) and expand upward, slurring as far as C above-the-staff (either lip slurs or chromatically), then down to pedal C, then back to low C in one breath.
Paul
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