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Bach Mt. Vernon mouthpieces



 
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Steve T.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:23 pm    Post subject: Bach Mt. Vernon mouthpieces Reply with quote

Virtually trumpet player I know prefers old Bach mouthpieces to new ones. Right now I'm playing on a new gold plated 1 1/2 C and my teacher thinks I should switch to a 1 1/4 C. I tried an older one (that my teacher said he bought in the Eighties) and it does seem to be bit more comfortable for me. Before I go out and purchase a 1 1/4 C though, I have a few questions: Is there really a big difference in the way that old Bach mouthpieces play Vs. the way that the new ones play? Are they made differently now that they were back then? If so, did they make a Mt. Vernon 1 1/4 C, because I can't find one anywhere? Any insight into this is greatly appreciated!
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petere
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a mt Vernon Mouthpiece - 10.5 C and it is VERY different from current ones. Wider, flatter rim, for starters.

If you go the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator web site you can see differences between NY Bach pieces and modern ones.

Others will chime in, I'm sure. petere
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StevenPSparks
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of opinions out there on this. I have an extensive collection of NY, Mt V, and early Elkhart Bachs, and I think that in general, the Mt Vs do play & sound better than newer versions. But, before you spend a lot of time deciding, you should know that Mt V 1 1/4Cs usually bring $2-400 on auction, so unless you're prepared to spend that much, the difference may be a moot point for you anyway.
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trumpetart
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only Mt. Vernon mouthpiece I have owned is a 1 1/2C, and without a doubt it's superior to the modern 1 1/2C. (for my purposes anyway)
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silveryoshii
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2-400 is alot so go for the newer ones or a monette?
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Ralph
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have several older Bachs, some of which are MV. I find the older Bach rims to be a little wider with a softer bite. The MV rims are flatter than today's rims. I have an older 1 1/4C screw rim which I use and it's great. I also have a new 1 1/4C and I have to say it's a very good mouthpiece. I prefer the older rim, but the new one is still very good. You should look on Dillon's webpage at the used mouthpieces they have for sale.

http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Products/Default.aspx?sq=C%2b7QkKjUJG8yB0jgyS5Ppu3EysQfLK5mp8j%2ftiFFXLI%3d

The most important thing is to find the right size for you. Then you can start experimenting with vintage rims.
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Steve T.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for replying to my post. All of your comments have really helped to clarify many of my questions.
Steve
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BengeBoy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,

If you'd like a 'new' Mt. Vernon 1 1/4 C, you might consider the Curry 1 1/4 C. All Curry C cups are patterned after Mount Vernon C cups. I believe you can get a new Curry for around $40. If you want the look of a Bach piece, you can order a Curry in the traditional Bach-style blank (at additional cost) instead of the standard Curry blank.

You might also consider a Kanstul mouthpiece. They have duplicates of Mount Vernon mouthpieces (and many others). These are modular, that is, you order the cup and backbore separately.

You can read about both at the Curry and Kanstul websites.
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StevenPSparks
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No disrespect intended to anyone that suggested a Mt V copy, but if you want the sound that made the Mt V 'pieces famous, you'll have to buy an original. I have owned as many as 300+ mouthpieces (at the same time), among them representation of most all brands that were patterned after or just plain copies of the Bachs that I had made by more than one respected MP manufacturer w/ the technology to duplicate. They do not sound the same and, although much more subjective in nature, I do not think that they play the same either.
Because most all other of the variables have been eliminated by technology, I have come to believe that the brass alloy composition is what is responsible for the inability to truly duplicate their sound. I also believe the same phenomena is present when comparing the sound(s) of the horns of yesteryear to those of the "homogenized brass alloys" of present, but that's another subject.
Anyway, Vincent Bach was known for experimenting with diferent alloys of brass probably more than any other horn maker of his day, and likely of all time. I also know that some of his NY era MPs were fabricated from red (high copper) brass.
Anyway, this is my theory & my story, and I'm sticking with it....lol
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Ralph
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't figure out why my Parke mouthpiece sounds better than all the rest. It may be the bronze.
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giantsteps
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about the kanstul mt. vernon replicas? might be a LOT cheaper than the actual mt. vernon counterpart plus you can tweak the backbore...
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StevenPSparks
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph wrote:
I can't figure out why my Parke mouthpiece sounds better than all the rest. It may be the bronze.

Hmm.....
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Sparks
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a MV 10-1/2 C and found out that I much prefer the modern ones. It seemed smaller than the modern ones, and was very tight blowing. I sold it.
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half91585
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mt. Vernon mouthpieces are all different. The 1 1/4C is actually quite a bit shallower than your modern day 1 1/4C, or even 1 1/2C for that matter. Roger Murtha let me use one at Hartt for a little bit and I found it extremely comfortable, but I needed something with a little more room than that. It all depends, the old models were not all carbon copies of each other. In other words, the C cup on different diameters is not the same, or even close for some models!
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trptdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have actual experience with the MV 1 1/2 C and the MV 3C? Looking at the Kanstul Comparator, the MV 3C and the modern 1 1/2 C are virtually identical and the MV 3C is actually larger (in diameter) than the MV 1 1/2 C according to the comparator. Could there have been a mix up in the Comparator?

David
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StevenPSparks wrote:
No disrespect intended to anyone that suggested a Mt V copy, but if you want the sound that made the Mt V 'pieces famous, you'll have to buy an original. I have owned as many as 300+ mouthpieces (at the same time), among them representation of most all brands that were patterned after or just plain copies of the Bachs that I had made by more than one respected MP manufacturer w/ the technology to duplicate. They do not sound the same and, although much more subjective in nature, I do not think that they play the same either.
Because most all other of the variables have been eliminated by technology, I have come to believe that the brass alloy composition is what is responsible for the inability to truly duplicate their sound. I also believe the same phenomena is present when comparing the sound(s) of the horns of yesteryear to those of the "homogenized brass alloys" of present, but that's another subject.
Anyway, Vincent Bach was known for experimenting with diferent alloys of brass probably more than any other horn maker of his day, and likely of all time. I also know that some of his NY era MPs were fabricated from red (high copper) brass.
Anyway, this is my theory & my story, and I'm sticking with it....lol


This has been offered as a possible explanation for why no one can seem to duplicate the sound and performance qualities of say a vintage super recording by Olds.The metal tech. and the old time craftsmen who worked with them.
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