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Mouthpieces for Easily cut lips



 
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MusicOmnibus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject: Mouthpieces for Easily cut lips Reply with quote

I have been having a problem for a few years now. Whenever I play i cut my lips and they bleed ever so slightly as to where i can taste it. I was wondering what kind of mouthpiece should I look into that would remove the sharp inner edge that is cutting my lips?
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best one is the now extinct Al Cass trumpet mouthpiece line. If you can find one anyway. Haven't been made since the mid 1980's or so.

Do a search here on Trumpetherald for Steve Cass and send him a private message. Tell him Lee sent ya.

Al Cass is the only mouthpiece i will play. Gives me three times the endurance as a comparable mouthpiece from somewhere else. Is also a good piece to use if you haven't had enough time to practice recently.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schilke mouthpieces have less bite on the rim than most. The 10B4(similar in rim size to Bach 10 1/2 C), 12B4 (similar in rim size to Bach 7C), 14A4,14B4 (similar in rim size to Bach 3C). Warburton mouthpieces are also a bit moe rounded, but not as much as Schilke.

Check the Kanstul Comparator:
http://www.kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareJR.HTM

Pick your moutpiece and compare to others like Schilke, Warburton, etc.
Good luck!

Pete
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lh
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MusicOmnibus,

Are you absolutely sure that the cuts are coming from the inner edge of your rim and not from your teeth? If so, I would imagine you have a seriously defective mouthpiece or you are pressing WAY too hard.

It's usually protruding teeth that cut lip tissue when it happens. It's kinda like meat, and I can't see how the inner rim could be "knife-like" enough to get those results.

Dave
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some truth to that Pete but unless you've seen an Al Cass piece the suggestion that Schilke is better at reducing the "bite" (compared to bach) isn't all that note worthy. Ditto Marcinkiewicz whish also is a tad "softer" than Bach.

The whole Al Cass mouthpiece line, from trombone, trumpet to French horn had a continuous radius curve from outside rim to the alpha angle.

Nothing beats them for comfort.
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shastastan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lee. You helped me out when I first started back. Again, many thanks! You are/were so right about the bite of Bach's, too. The most comfy rim I've found is the Reeves followed closely by Curry. I haven't ever tried a Cass. I've never had the lip bleeding problem though. As an old guy the veins on my arms are closed to the surface and can start to bleed with just a bump into the corner of a board. Maybe, his problem is due to the veins being close to the surface?

Stan
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine who blew his lip out once had quite a bit of luck with the Parduba mouthpieces. In fact, they were the only thing he could play that wouldn't cause his upper lip to rip open.
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tibbs20
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Far more knowledgeable people than me have already posted replies, but the way I see it, if you're bleeding from playing the trumpet, you need to take up the sax. I've got really uneven teeth, and my chops get pretty beaten up sometimes, but nothing a day off and blistex lip cream can't handle. No mouthpiece has an inner bite that's so sharp it can actually cut your lip. If it is the mouthpiece that's cutting your lip, then your lips just aren't 'cut out' for trumpet playing. (excuse the pun)
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maeissin
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered a plastic or a cushioned mpc?
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First point:

My guess is that players with perfect teeth have been known to cut their lips while playing, no matter what kind of mpc they used.

Second point:

I've known players with crooked teeth and various levels of teeth protruding who have been able to play with no damage to their lips, no matter what kind of mpc they used.

I don't think it's the teeth or the mpc. Playing the trumpet shouldn't have to be an assault on the lips.
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stradfreak101
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that'd be cool if there was a mouthpiece that the rim was made of foam or something like that...
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MusicOmnibus
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Perfect teeth and Mpc Reply with quote

I am pretty sure its the mouthpiece that is cutting(as the cut contuors exactly the shape of the inner rim) although I do have perfect teeth which is an interesting notion. I have also tried playing with a new embouchure too..because my cutting problem occurs when i play off the left side of the mouth and the upper lip is mostly just the red inside the mouthpiece.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am pretty sure its the mouthpiece that is cutting(as the cut contuors exactly the shape of the inner rim)


I agree, of course, that the mpc is what is cutting your lips. But I was implying that I believe it's the way you are playing that is causing the mpc to do that and will likely keep giving you trouble even with a different mpc. Some mpcs will definitely be more conducive, but you might want to consider pursuing some embouchure development as a means to fix the problem.
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reversedlead
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your technique is good and you're not pressing too hard...

Bob Reeves... like butta! Try a 43W rim and you won't be disappointed.


Brandon
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tibbs20
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I underwent an embochure change because I ran into problems, one of which was my teeth dug in my top lip. It's a daunting prospect. I hope you can find a mouthpiece that works for you. Best of luck.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(1) It would be helpful to know what mouthpieces you have used that cut your lip and what size you are playing on now.
(2) Do you play with the horn pointed down, up, or staight out?
(3) Does your lower jaw recede when you play or do you keep your upper and lower front teeth lined up? In some cases a wider mouthpiece may help by keeping you from dropping the horn down. If this is your problem you may need to move to a smaller wider mouthpiece for a period of time to correct.
(4) Do you play with 2/3 upper lip 1/3 bottom, 1/3 upper 2/3 bottom, 1/2 top 1/2 bottom? If you play with 1/3 top you could give the Asymmetrical mouthpieces a try.

I spent years on the Bach 5B - loved the sound but it was brutal to my lip even though it had no sharp bite - it was too round. I found the Bach 2 and 2C to have too sharp a rim because of the extreme under cut. The only rims I have found to be both comfortable and to have good articulation in the long haul are:
Schilke 17, 17D4, 10B4
Bach 6, 6B, 11A (one of the best rim contours in my opinion - too bad no one offers the rim in different sizes)
Tottle round contour models - not the * models. Now offered by Louis DiOrio. I mess around with different mpcs but alway come back to the Tottles and can never figure out why I bother with the others.
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shastastan wrote:
Hi Lee. You helped me out when I first started back. Again, many thanks! You are/were so right about the bite of Bach's, too. The most comfy rim I've found is the Reeves followed closely by Curry. I haven't ever tried a Cass. I've never had the lip bleeding problem though. As an old guy the veins on my arms are closed to the surface and can start to bleed with just a bump into the corner of a board. Maybe, his problem is due to the veins being close to the surface?

Stan


Why shucks Stan thanks for the good words. Sorry it took so long to reply.

Now check this out; I live in Santa Rosa, CA now. A little bit closer to you, correct?

So i got some Al Cass pieces. Not for sale unfortnately but on hand if you ever want to come down and try a couple. Then you can just get a hold of Steve Cass and see what he's got.

Here's the thing about hurt chops and mouthpiece "Bite":

If you play with a receded jaw formation the inner edge of the mouthpiece has more of a tendency to CUT your chops. Especially the upper lip.

It's just simple physics. The front teeth are more forward compared to the lower (on a receded jaw player), In this position the inner rim puts more impact on the upper lip. You could probably decribe it as an increased measure of pounds per square inch.

OR: The way a woman's high styleto shoes will hurt like hell if she steps on your toes while dancing. Switch her to sneakers and who cares, right?

In conclusion: If your are a receded jaw player or someone who is affected negatively by the rim on most all standard mouthpieces made today: The Al Cass mouthpiece could be a GODSEND. Whoops we're not supposed to talk religion here anymore.

Anyway, An Al Cass mouthpiece increased my endurance by about 300%.
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Asian Man
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeC, wouldn't a cushion rimmed mouthpiece with a soft bite do the trick or am i just describing Al Cass' stuff? Maybe a Kelly plastic mouthpiece?
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asian Man wrote:
LeeC, wouldn't a cushion rimmed mouthpiece with a soft bite do the trick or am i just describing Al Cass' stuff? Maybe a Kelly plastic mouthpiece?


It's a good question and will try and give you what i think is a good answer.

Yes a wider rim could help as this spreads the load a bit. Or to use the analogy in my previous post a wider rim makes your date's high heel shoes bigger: Less pounds of pressure per square inch on the toes.

OK but the wider rim does not address one important aspect: The actual inner rim edge could still be as sharp as an ordinary Vincent Bach mouthpiece.

Have you ever tried to break a piece of metal when you don't have bolt cutters or snips? What do you do?: You bend the metal over and over in the SAME place...

You try and keep bending the piece in exactly the same spot until the metal is so stressed that it eventually separates or breaks.

OK THAT is analogous to a sharp inner rim "bite" on a mouthpiece. Even a piece with a wider rim. Only it is your lip that is at risk of breaking...

Remember: Much of the playing load is still felt on the inner rim "bite". Play on a sharp one long enough and you can can actually work a hole in your upper lip. And this is true even if you don't play a lot of high notes or use undue pressure. However high notes and arm pressure will more quickly aggravate the condition.

Usually it is the upper lip which gets hurt but can happen to the lower as well. However typically the receded jaw player has issues with his upper lip.

So if you can find and play an Al Cass mouthpiece it'll make you feel like your lips have disappeared! Seriously! You may not be aware of how much pain your chops have already endured on existing mouthpiece manufacturers models.

We become so used to a certain amount of pain when playing we often never realize how much hurt is caused ourselves. So get the Al Cass 1-28 or 3x4 if you like shallow.

Have Kanstul make a copy of your friend's mouthpiece if you can't find an original Al Cass.

And besides: They are antiques. Got some collectors value too.
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still_fiddlin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curry 600 series have a soft bite.
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