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What is resistance?



 
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_TrumpeT_
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: What is resistance? Reply with quote

What do people mean when they say this trumpet has more resistance than the other?
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VM Trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Backpressure. The difference in feeling of blowing through a straw and a PVC pipe.

Some like "having something to lean against" (i.e. a straw). Others want a "wide open" blow (i.e. a pipe).

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Peter Bond
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VM Trumpet wrote:
Backpressure. The difference in feeling of blowing through a straw and a PVC pipe.

Some like "having something to lean against" (i.e. a straw). Others want a "wide open" blow (i.e. a pipe).

-VM Trumpet


Students who complain of "backpressure" are usually creating it internally with their tongue (arched up in a 'k' position) or their lips (compressed or jammed shut at the m'piece).
To me, resistance is more an acoustic phenomenon, influenced by bore & bell size, taper rates and materials. In other words, design. Some resistance is necessary and desireable, and different players prefer differing amounts. Too little resistance though, and a trumpet is virtually unplayable.
Other factors:
>Mouthpiece gap, fit, and balance.
>Valve alignment (worn or oversized felts) are factors in resistance and response.
>Keeping the instrument and mouthpieceCLEAN are also critical, and frequently overlooked, even by pros (duh!).
>Another little-known cause is structural tension This can be caused by poor initial assembly (soldered under tension), damage (dents, bending), and/or poor repair. A trumpet that is "stressed" will play stuffy, and be out of tune. Fortunately, this is easily corrected by a skilled repairman who can disassemble, adjust and resolder the braces and tubing w/o tension.
Peter Bond
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Backpressure. The difference in feeling of blowing through a straw and a PVC pipe.

This is the wrong answer. Peter has given the correct answer.
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VM Trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
Quote:
Backpressure. The difference in feeling of blowing through a straw and a PVC pipe.

This is the wrong answer. Peter has given the correct answer.

His was more thorough, but whether it is created by the player or the horn's characteristics and qualities, resistance is still easily described as "backpressure."

-VM Trumpet
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JayJay
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: silent brass system Reply with quote

Just got my silent brass system. there is resistance. but now there is a mic pickup in the mute that amplifies the sounds I make. this is different from the other things I have tryed, to be quiet for family and neighbors.

I have tryed "Put a sock in it" WOW! that was resistance... I had to work at getting the song just right. had to find the right way to shove that sock so that my blowing wouldn't blow the sock out the bell.
I'm just learning myself and my practice is just that, practice learning...with the flats and sharps not intended really...

I have tryed the cup mute, (Humes & Berg) there is a little resistance with this one too...but I hear what others would hear if they were in the room with me... I had my son take a sound check in other rooms of the house and the sound was really not heard about the house. Low noise is what I'm getting at for the level of practice I find myself.

I got one of the old time plungers that fits on the bell and added a few holes... it was a mute of sorts... still some resistance. And I felt the resistance (back pressure) I would love to play in the empty church building and I do when I get the time to get over there when others are not.

Again, I got the Silent Brass System from Musicians Friend, today and got it all set up...put the mute in the bell and turned the system on...I have the system hanging from my belt loop, my headphones on and ready to blow the horn...I did and I heard something different than any of the other methods I've tryed...I'm not selling this system and I don't recommend my other choices either but just letting someone know how this system works. I can now play, with volumn control etc... even echo reverb stuff, I can play...some resistance, but the mic in the mute picks up the sound and amplifies it into the headset and I hear different than the sock mute or the plunger... I think this will work just fine...

It is my intention to use this at home here. BUT not replace my regular free playing with just the horn and no fetters attached. Nothing can take the place of just playing the trumpet freely. I have the freedom now to play even if the home is filled with family and friends, or my wife is having a tupperware party with the neibhorhood ladies.

thanks for letting me share my experience
with you.
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JayJay
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The SB system is still doing good. Keeping the volume up helps me not play hard to compensate for the resistance...I can still play when others in the home are not feeling well and can't take the noise that I play...
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is fair to say that resistance can arise as a result of equipment that is too small, as a result of inefficient playing, or as a result of acoustical phenomena that make it feel as if the equipment is too small -- or, most likely, some combination of the above. WAY WAY WAY too many people mistake the second or third for the first.
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JayJay
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resistance CAN arise from different situations. I'm not a University professor, nor am I a seasoned professional player of the trumpet, but I've been reading on this site about resistance and the search of the same and it is interesting what is here. thank you for adding to the mix.

When I place the sock in the bell end of the trumpet, Indeed there is resistance induced by the blockage. (first couple times, the sock flew out like those spit balls) When I put an old time plunger over the bell and place two small holes in the plunger, the resistance is very noticable, induced by the plunger.

After playing with the plunger or the sock installed, I wonder if I got used to it too much and now show signs of resistance induced by "inefficient playing"? I am a beginner, and some days this kind of resistance is not present. there was a thread about resistance, induced by the student...I have had that thought myself...

Can resistance be induced by a clogged, dirty trumpet? Like its time for a bath? I clean it regularly, but maybe I need to do it more? Or can resistance be induced by a cold MP and a cold trumpet?

I am the student here...can you elaborate on resistance induced by equipment too small? ex: a small extention cord heats up (resistance) because it is too small for the current. what is needed is a bigger, thicker extention cord to carry the current...Is this thinking in the ballpark?
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chopissimo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of the "resistance" is the soundwaves coming back from the bell (or mute) to your mouthpiece. Also from the flow of air being obstructed by the valve ports, tapers, turns of the tubing, mutes, etc

Take a length of 1/2-inch diameter PVC or copper pipe, and blow in it: what do you feel? Now, play a note buzzing your lips: what happens?

Take the mouthpiece off your trumpet, then blow. What do you feel?
Then, put the mouthpiece on, then blow. What do you feel?
Now, play a note: what do you feel? Resistance.
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Peter Bond
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chopissimo wrote:
Part of the "resistance" is the soundwaves coming back from the bell (or mute) to your mouthpiece. Also from the flow of air being obstructed by the valve ports, tapers, turns of the tubing, mutes, etc

Take a length of 1/2-inch diameter PVC or copper pipe, and blow in it: what do you feel? Now, play a note buzzing your lips: what happens?

Take the mouthpiece off your trumpet, then blow. What do you feel?
Then, put the mouthpiece on, then blow. What do you feel?
Now, play a note: what do you feel? Resistance.


Precisely. Good examples, too.
Peter Bond
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JayJay
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS FOR THAT INFO...

I HAVE MORE TO LEARN...

BUT I WILL HAVE FUN AT LEARNING IT ALL...

SOON...SOMEDAY!



What about the cold / warm instrument issue? How does one play outside in the cold for two songs or more? Waht about the New Years parade bands? I'll do a search on these and more.

Thanks again Y'all
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Part of the "resistance" is the soundwaves coming back from the bell (or mute) to your mouthpiece.


This is the resistance due to acoustic impedance. It is related to the resonance of the horn. This is the PRIMARY and dominant resistance one feels beyond the aperture. But only while playing a note.

Quote:
Also from the flow of air being obstructed by the valve ports, tapers, turns of the tubing, mutes, etc


Valve ports, tapers and turns result in essentially zero resistance to the air "flow" compared to other factors when one is playing a note. However they can affect the acoustics of the instrument and this is where their effect is felt. But, again it has nothing to do with air flow in the horn.


The air flow encounters resistance beginning in the lungs and that frictional resistance continues all the way to the aperture, it CAN be quite significant especially if you use a tight airway, pronounced tongue arch etc.

The greatest resistance that the air flow encounters BEFORE it enters the mp cup is thru the aperture. This is the point of greatest resistance and followed by it is the resistance DUE TO the acoustics of the horn and the reflected wave.

Hence, any "air flow" (or frictional) resistance inside the horn is "masked" by the much greater resistances of the aperture and the acoustic impedance and the air flow inside the body.

Take note that the work done by the air pressure against the acoustical impedance is the only work that translates to sound energy.

In other words the embouchure is a necessary evil from a resistance point of view.

But as a player learns efficiency he is also basically learning to reduce
the "self-resistance" of the embouchure when he plays.

Also since the energy losses due to air flow thru the embouchure are related to the flow and/or velocity of the air thru it, a reduction in flow means less loss of energy due to the resistance of the embouchure.

In other words, efficient players use less airflow (and velocity) in general, not more.

Resistance is not well understood by the trumpet community.

.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's how I understand it as well, Darryl.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAYJAY wrote:

Quote:
Can resistance be induced by a clogged, dirty trumpet? Like its time for a bath? I clean it regularly, but maybe I need to do it more?


Acumulated dirt has a dampening effect on the resonance of the horn. This can actually decrease the resistance acoustically but also hurts the sound. Less sound for your efforts.

Quote:
I am the student here...can you elaborate on resistance induced by equipment too small? ex: a small extention cord heats up (resistance) because it is too small for the current. what is needed is a bigger, thicker extention cord to carry the current...Is this thinking in the ballpark?


If you wish to discuss it in an electrical sense the horn is not like a wire but yet an inductor (coiled wire)/ capacitor network, which has not a simple DC resistance but a complex impedance which is revealed only when an AC voltage is applied. (Or any abrupt change in voltage for that matter) Analogous to the pulsed pressure from the embouchure.

The impedance due to the colied wire is then not simply related to the size of the wire but also the physical make-up of the coil. Namely, the number of turns.


Darryl Jones
Trumpet player, Electrical Engineer
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chopissimo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE
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Playing "bop" is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing.
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Peter Bond
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chopissimo wrote:
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE


Don't resist the resistance...use it!
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chopissimo
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly!

Resistance is what the trumpet uses to tell the player where the limit is, and around what point the sounds have to be articulated.
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