What does the term "payin your dues" mean to you?

[Jason Palmer]

I've had this on my mind for quite a while now. What does this age old term mean to you today? Does it conjure up thoughts of standing in a long line of horn players at a jam session and being revered my your contemporaries through that avenue? Or does it involve an aspiring bandleader having to go out and play a bunch of sideman gigs that he/she would rather not do in order to make ends meet? At what point does one conclude that he/she has already paid his/her dues? Once you're out of school? Has the presence of formal musical training facilities beyond high school surpassed the "jazz club" scene as the primary platform for young jazz musicians to "cut their teeth"? What about the mentor/apprentice philosophy that was so prevalent in the past decades with player such as Blakey, Elvin, Dizzy, Horace Silver hiring younger musicians, giving them the invaluable knowledge that it takes to be a successful jazz musician on the international stage? With fewer oppurtunities out there for the younger musicians to grow from, where does that leave the music?

With music in mind,

Jason Palmer

[pistonpete]

You asked a lot of questions, each of which may to some people, in specific situations refer to paying ones dues.... with one exception... I don't know of anyone in any field where graduation from college is considered paying your dues. That's entry level. In some fields a college degree may open the door, but you're still green. You don't have any real world experience yet.

College kids have a hard time understanding this point. They think they've paid dues just by going to school. They think they've worked hard already. The real working world, however, with uncertainty, politics, REAL deadlines, etc, that's paying your dues.

But, not everyone pays dues nor is dues-paying a requirement to success. Talent, fame, and other extraordinary circumstances make dues-paying a non-issue (Mozart didn't pay dues nor did somebody like Steve Jobs).

If you're concerned that you haven't paid your dues yet (is that why you're asking?) I'd simply continue doing what you're doing but stay humble. It's hard for anyone to see somebody younger get all the attention and watch them rise faster than you did yourself, but it's much easier to deal with if they're good people with a good dose of humility.

Pete

[pfeifela]

To me it means a demonstration of commitment. And to that end, I will never finish paying. Sometimes less, sometimes more.....but always ongoing.
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Larry Pfeifer

[wvtrumpet]

Jason,

This is a great question. To me it means playing a lot of gigs and doing things that we would normally turn down, but to gain experience and more importantly exposure, we do them anway. It could mean taking a gig that pays very little or even nothing at all.
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[James B. Quick]

Part of what it means to me is playing a gig and not being able to make it home afterwards because you put the car and the trailer in the ditch because the snow was so deep you couldn't tell where the road was anymore, moving the barricades that said "Interstate Closed" and trying to make it to the next gig... Stopping at a Farmer's Co-op on the way to a gig so that one of the guys in the band could borrow a welder and try to re-attach the trailer hitch... Running into a deer every 4 or 5 weeks, Having to drive 200 miles at 80 miles an hour to gigs because the drummer's brain is unable to comprehend the concept of leaving at 2 or 3 pm... etc etc.... jbqd

[Fleebat]

Very few players start their working careers with a steady stream of good gigs, decent income and the kind of experience that allows one to handle difficult situations without a lot of trauma. Most of us start(ed) out in "iffy" working situations; infrequent gigs, low pay, lousy joints, cheating club managers, broken promises/commitments, less-than-favorite styles or personnel lineups that we endured because they were all that was available to someone just starting out. We wore the stupid band outfits. We played the five-night, four-hours-a night gigs for $250 a week. We did "Tie A Yellow Ribbon" twice in the same night because the boss' "pickup" wanted to sing it with the band, faked through "New York, New York" in a rock band because the club was mob owned - and you just don't say "no" to those guys. Played "Old Time Rock & Roll" one more time for the guys in the bachelor party to make their stupid 20 dollar tip ('cause each of the five of us really could use the extra 4 bucks for gas). We looked for the club owner to get paid after loading the van, only to find he'd skipped out. Those, IMHO, are dues. Somehow, I don't equate 'em to having juries on the same week as a psych final.

With time, experience gained through hard work and the awareness to make the best of any opportunities, we get better, bring more to the gig, build a wider network of people who know us and feel they can count on us. More work opportunities come in, we can be a bit more choosy, earn more for each gig (mostly), move up in the "ranks" of players in our area.

Newcomers to Nashville often bemoan what they perceive as "cliques." They see people getting work, people who've been here a while and know lots of others. They think someone "should" call them just because they somehow got here, maybe spent some time in college, had gigs back home, whatever. Occasionally someone roars into town and is both lucky and AMAZING, or has a serious rep from elsewhere, and they move right in. But most have to be here a while, get to know people, prove themselves on lesser gigs, move "up" slowly.

What looks like a world of cliques is really just a network of people who know they can count on each other and get along. For several years, I was an editor for Guitar Player Magazine. People would see my name in print and look me up when they got to town (union book, phone book). I was doing some sessions & lots of live work back then and occasionally had the chance to call players for those jobs. Newcomers were sometimes bitter that I didn't put them on the top of the list. Well, let's see... I know a bass player whom I first worked with 12 years earlier, did all kinds of stupid, low-paying gigs with, got out of some tight situations with, a guy who paid my bills for a couple weeks when I was in the hospital, who calls me for work anytime he gets a chance, who I KNOW will bring his A game to the session, sound good, get along, no problems, whose wife I took to the hospital when she had their first child and he was on the road trying to pay for it... um... lessee... who should I call? The new guy whose daddy just put him through music school?

Nope. He's gotta be here. Do the crummy gigs. Prove himself as a player and human being, show that he can bring it and get along. Overcome the same hurdles and disappointments and slow times and music-biz crap that the rest of us had to deal with. How bad does he want it? Bad enough to put up with extended periods of feeling like the world doesn't want him? Bad as we did? When he's got some of that under his belt, and he's still standing there with a smile on his face and a good attitude (and great tone!), he's paid his dues. He'll have the "people chops" to turn a sow's ear of a gig into a silk purse. To make the lamest songwriter you ever heard feel like his little demo session is the most important gig that's gone down all year. He's in. It's not a meanness thing. It's a count-on-you, know you're here for the long haul thing.

Oh, and I agree... while getting through college deserves respect, it has little or nothing to do with cutting it in the real world. One sure way to tell that someone's real green and has little pro experience: they're always referring to something "my teacher" or "one of my proffs" said.

It's hard for young people to really understand the scope of things, how long the process of truly "becoming" something really is. It was hard for me, and for everyone I knew as a young guy. I think today's young people have it even tougher, because their world has been one of instant results and gratification (internet, FedEx, 24-hour news, the popularity of buying things on credit). When you're young, you look at putting in a full year of thankless effort toward a goal - or two, or three - and it seems like forever. "Gee, I've been doing these exercises for SIX WEEKS and I still don't have a high A!" When you get older, putting in a year or two to build a solid skill or make some serious career headway doesn't seem like much at all.

Rusty Russell

[Fleebat]

Jason,

Re-reading your original post, I realize that you were asking for opinions related to the jazz world. I still think some of what I wrote about the commercial world applies. In jazz, the big bands are LONG gone, and as you mention, I think the mentoring thing that was prevalent a few years ago is more rare today. In light of how you actually posed your questions, I'd have to say I define "paying your dues" as:

Doing whatever you can, for as long as it takes, without losing heart, until you've got everything it takes to fill the role you've defined as your "successful" self. Then all you have to do is keep hoping the rest of the world will allow you the opportunities to BE that! After all, having paid your dues still doesn't guarantee you'll make it.

RR

[tptfrbrains]

[GenoValet]

Part of paying dues is being 59, moving to a new town, joining a new band & sitting in last chair, knowing after 1 rehearsal that you are better than the 1st chair, staying put without complaining while waiting to get noticed...and so on...but, always being joyful along the way because you know that you are also among the rare breed known as "artists."

[David O]

To really want it more than anything else in the world. To work your ass off, to give large amounts of effort. Then to remind yourself that at some stage you still have to be enjoying it. To reach a wall where you start doubting yourself, then to keep going. To have in your head that if there's going to be one thing that you have been successful in your life, this is it. To deal with all the frustrations, consistantly, daily. To realise where, and how the process has developed you as a person. And to stay humble when you start to reap the rewards of your persistance.

[Pastor Joe]

From: www.thefreedictionary.com
Idioms:
pay (one's) dues
To earn a given right or position through hard work, long-term experience, or suffering: She paid her dues in small-town theaters before being cast in a Broadway play.
It's probably up to each individual to see how it applies in their life or particular situation.
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[pistonpete]

tptfrbrains,

My point about Mozart was that with exceptional talent he immediately rose to fame as a child, bypassing the normal "dues paying" period that would occur before achieving such success and notoriety.

While anyone can end up paying dues at various periods of their life due to career changes, unexpected challenges, unrealized dreams, etc, it was my impression that Jason was asking about paying dues at the beginning of one's career, so that's specifically what I was talking about with regard to Mozart.

Pete

[J. Crowley]

good question, with the decreasing number of positions in established jazz groups and the increase in need of every jazz musician to develope his/her own music style, I think paying dues today entitles a lot of playing for free or next to no money just to get your name out there, and doing this constantly...I think the term came from doing things you don't necessarily want to be doing but doing them anyway due to your love of music and need to make a living.
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[Jason Palmer]

Wow,

Thanks for all the input. It definitely gives me a lot to think about and to draw from. I learn so much coming here to TH!! I guess I've been thinking about the notion of this term being used by music writers/critics. I must admit that it's not as common to find that term, especially in most of the reviews that I've read in the past two or three years, but from reading various liner notes cd reviews, etc. from the 90's I've come across this term quite often. To me it seems that the given writer is trying to convey that "this artist has emerged from the inner depths of music industry hell" tone and has been molded into this product that's ready for consumption for the masses, when in actuality (I don't know if that's a word), this artists has been plugging away on the scene for some time.

For me, playing gigs for little or no money is a prerequisite once you're getting established (especially in the jazz field). It shouldn't be that way, but hey, you can't have anything (freudal slip . I found myself at a lot of jam sessions, paying to play in order to network and be heard, but with a lot of clubs closing down (I believe that either Downbeat or Jazz Times recently ran an article on the diminishing club scene here in the states), I start to wonder if that platform is going to be irrelevant in the near future. I wouldn't mind starting a jazz club in the next 20 years or so (Aurturo Sandoval started one in Florida that's really nice).

I've come to a partial conclusion that payin dues is the process in which we acquire knowledge, whether it's through an institution, the streets, a combination of both (such as the case with me), or perhaps locked up in a closet shedding your life away (also the case with me). Each avenue is going to product different results, so I think in today's field, you need a lot of everything, street smarts (the ability to be personable, despite personal circumstances), perhaps some formal training (few artists can get by nowadays on playing alone-you pretty much have to be able to teach and convey your personal musical concepts in the classroom), and the work ethic to become a bettter musician on a daily basis.

With music in mind,

Jason Palmer

[jazz_trpt]

I stopped paying my dues about 15 years ago. Then the union kicked me out.
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Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[Jason Palmer]

That's a good one Jeff!!! I actually have a question about that. I recently got a letter in the mail from the local out in L.A. stating that I need to join the union after playing a t.v. show out there. I'm not well versed in the pros/cons of being a member. I currently don't have any interest in joining.

Take care,

Jason Palmer
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[jazz_trpt]

[pistonpete]

Jason,

Another thing to keep in mind regarding dues paying is the fact that it's totally relative and subjective. No matter how much you think you've suffered for your art, no matter how many lame gigs you played, no matter how many hours you've practiced, there are always others out there who have suffered more, practiced more, played more lame gigs, etc.

Put another way, compared to somebody twice your age who's been plugging away nonstop their entire life, you haven't paid a thing yet (in their eyes). And that gets back to my original point about not worrying about how much dues you have or haven't paid. Just give it your all and stay humble around others and you'll come out just fine.

Pete

[jazz_trpt]

Humility is a great word in the context of talking about paying dues. Bravo.
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Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[harry56]

this is great stuff! It's like you are putting together really clear lesson plans for self-teaching. Bravo!


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