Buffet Crampon again

tim.jones · Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: Buffet Crampon again

I was on here at the end of last year appealing for info on a Buffet Crampon Bb trumpet. I got a couple hits and connected with Robert Rowe on the purchase of a horn similar but not quite the same. I'm pleased with that horn but still long for the originally described trumpet.

Today I got on ebay and, looking under Evette Schaeffer I found this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Buffet-Evette-Schaeffer-Selmer-Balanced-Opera-Trumpet_W0QQitemZ130093080688QQcategoryZ16214QQcmdZViewItem

(sorry, I know there's a way to format this so all you do is pick it and you're launched to that spot but I'm a real rookie at this)

This, folks, is my exact horn except it doesn't have the 1st and 3rd slide triggers. Also, the case is precisely mine except mine was about 4" wider to accomodate a mute or lyre or what have you.

On the ebay site it says other posters have indicated it was made by Courtois - something I sort of thought also, back in October.

Anyway, the sad part of the find is that it sold already (and I would have been willing to pay a good deal more than the guy got for it). Is this an appropriate place to ask that you all keep an eye out for another one of these and let me know in time to snap it up? I'm trying to replace a sentimental favorite stolen some time ago. If so, thanks in advance,

Tim Jones[/url]

nieuwguyski · Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject:

Here are two Buffet "balanced" trumpets for sale at Dillon Music:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?sq=yi2XzpyFRRSCQoALEEU%2f9LLGTIgy8hsglI2zj%2bFcWjk%3d

http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?sq=yi2XzpyFRRSCQoALEEU%2f9BGCr9rr2hgt8IPozcro%2btM%3d

The first appears to have a third-valve trigger, though neither has a first-valve trigger.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski

Shabbs · Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:31 am Post subject:

$210.00 holy crap. That's just a steal. Man i wish i saw that...

tim.jones · Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:48 am Post subject:

Shabbs:

No kiddin'. I've been looking seriously since October; learned quite a bit about these things while trying to replace mine. I keep an eye out for anything with Evette and Schaeffer, Buffet Crampon, Antoine Courtois, Couesnon, even Modl. I don't know how this got by my radar. I was shocked to see $210 and that it had come and gone on ebay and I didn't see it. If any of you see something like this again please smack me upside the head and wake me up. I did see the two at Dillon; thanks for pointing them out.

One more thing about the trumpet I'm trying to replace (as described above): though it is virtually the same trumpet we're talking about here and pictured at the ebay site I am positive it had the Buffet Crampon et Cie. crest engraved on the bell instead of Evette and Schaeffer. I don't know if the Evette and Schaeffer got replaced in subsequent manufacture or if Buffet Crampon elected to stop putting their name on them (which came first, the chicken or the egg?).

Thanks for your response on this, regards,

Tim Jones

Charlesl20 · Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject:

Tim,

Well, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I'm the @#&^$'n @#%^%er that picked this horn up for $210.00. Now, I R-E-A-L-L-Y, R-E-A-L-L-Ywant this horn (and I was willing to go much higher than $210 as well (but don't tell the seller that!)), but I can tell it has a great sentimental value to you. I don't know.....I'm conflicted about this. As much as I want the horn, and as much as I know that I'll never, ever pick up one at a price like this again........but then again, I too have lost my parents and understand the sentimental attachment certain items I associate with them hold........but......... Aw Jeez! Here I was happy about getting a steal of a deal on a horn, and now I'm in a dilemna!!!!!!!

I don't know......if you're still interested in this horn, I'll think about parting with it.

Charles

Seouljourner · Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject:

Tim, Charles,

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade but I would like to avoid a disappointment for both of you. If the horn each of you is in possession of is as follows - Tim, I'm assuming you have a "Buffet American" and Charles, you are about to receive an "Evette & Schaeffer American" - and if both of them have 6 digit serial numbers then you have basically identical horns (except the Buffet has the triggers). I say this because I have one of each.

Tim, the horn you are looking for is a different variant of a similar horn. If I come across one, I'll let you know.

I am quite certain the Evette and Buffet horns came from the same factory. As for the Courtois connection I am doubtful of that since my Evette has "Made in Germany" stamped on the receiver.

Hope this is helpful,

Tim

Charlesl20 · Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:58 am Post subject:

Tim,

This particular horn does not have Germany on the leadpipe, but the design is almost identical to horns I've seen that are marked Germany. I guess the $64,000 question is still this: Who made these horns for Evette-Schaeffer and Buffet? Surely some wise and learned soul in this forum has that knowledge......

Charles

GordonH · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:59 am Post subject:

They are similar to the later Rudy Muck trumpets which were made in Europe if that helps?
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

mottman · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:13 am Post subject:

Hi. I noticed the comments about Buffet trumpets. If anyone is interested I have an older model that I am willing to pass on. It is a Buffet Crampon trumpet serial number 245. The bell is deeply engraved: BUFFET CRAMPON, S_A, 18_20, Pge du GdCerf, PARIS, FRANCE. The horn is complete except for one bottom cap. Is is very similar to the one referred to in another posting....
http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?sq=yi2XzpyFRRSCQoALEEU%2f9BGCr9rr2hgt8IPozcro%2btM%3d

This trumpet is basically dent-free and mostly raw brass. All slides are free. One of the finger botton stems is longer than the other two. No case. No mouthpiece.

If anyone is interested, email me for photos.

Regards......Rich chwakefiel@aol.com or 717-399-3177

Charlesl20 · Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:

Well, the answer to the $64,000 question may never be known. I have scrounged every bit of historical info I can on both Buffet-Crampon and Evette and Schaeffer....none of which mentions that either ever dealt in brass instruments. I've e-mailed Buffet....like I expected a reply! I've compared the design elements to every European maker I could find examples of. I've even appealed to the vast knowledge of the TH Forum. Not even a hint of an answer. (OK, the Rudy Muck comparison is a good hint, but who made the Mucks?) The only vague glimmer might be that from my research, it appears that E and S had factories in Germany at some point in time where they made some of the Buffet line, including saxaphones. Anyone think it's a possibility that E and S actually tooled up and made their own brass horns? Maybe made the later Rudy Mucks as well? I dunno......this puzzle seems hopeless!

Charles

Charlesl20 · Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject:

OK, still no real clues. Can't I just give up? Not just yet...... As I said earlier, this horn does not have Germany on the reciever. However, earlier I was noticing an extremely small mark on the reciever that I hadn't noticed before. I had to dig out a magnifying glass to read it. There is a very tiny F stamped into the reciever. Thoughts anyone?

Okay. Now I guess I can give up. Unless someone has a new clue to follow, I guess the quest for a maker comes to an end. The world (or at least I) may never know who made these horns, but I must say that whoever it was made a quality horn with attention to details in my opinion.

Charles

Seouljourner · Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject:

Charles,

FWIW, I (and I presume others) have been on this quest for some time. Along the way I have read internet comments on old eBay listings that claimed these horns were made by Scherzer, others by Monke. What makes things a little fuzzy is that there appear to be more than one Scherzer and more than one Monke. My vote at this time, simply by doing some visual comparisons of instrument photos, is that they were made by the factory of Wilhelm Monke. That being said, I have no documentation nor have I found substantial information on him or his instruments.

If others know more, feel free to chime in.

Tim

Robert Rowe · Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject:

Monke is still in business ... essentially, a "one-man operation". He fabricates some of the finest rotary-valve trumpets (C pitch) in the world. Very, expensive.

Yf fthfl Srvnt,
Robt
__________________________
"Tofu, please ... medium-well"

Robert Rowe · Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject:

Forgot to mention -- it is now Josef Monke.

Go to www.dogpile.com (much better than Google), and do "the search". There's a link to an ITG brassreview.

Yf fthfl Srvnt,
Robt
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I miss Genghis Khan ....

Charlesl20 · Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject:

Ahhhh.......but at the time these horns were made, I believe the Monke family was still running Josef Monke, and it was small, but more than a one man operation, so maybe Monke could have made these horns.

Charles

tim.jones · Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:52 am Post subject:

Do you suppose the Monke family changed the reference from Wilhelm Monke to Josef because there was a rather nasty Nazi war criminal who shared the same name (Wilhelm)? I only know this as I was looking for info on this trumpet and got several sites telling about all of this General's crimes. I hope the musician only shared the last name and wasn't this guy.

Tim Jones

richardwy · Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:08 am Post subject:

That was better left undone.

tim.jones · Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:22 am Post subject:

What, exactly, do you mean? I'm curious if there's any tie between the two? If there is there's no reason to dance around their feelings. If there isn't I just provided a chance to set everyone's mind at ease. If anyone needs to think before they post perhaps it is you.

We are so "sensitive" these days that we don't ask questions about and inspire discussion of times and subjects we truly should not let drift from our memories. Because we stopped talking about the Vietnam era a bunch of revisionist historians have painted a picture far different than it was and we slipped into a virtual twin war five years ago that is going the same nowhere that that one went. Because we have failed to talk about Senator McCarthy and his shenanigans enough we have recently found ourselves with an administration bullying anyone who had different views than they with phrases like "lending aid and comfort to the enemy". I'm going to blatantly steal another's philosophy: If we don't discuss our past we are doomed to repeat it.

Now, does anyone know if the Monke family that manufactured (and still does) musical instruments in Germany has any relation to the Wilhelm Monke who arranged for the murder of Jews in the Holocaust? A reasonable question that, I'm sure, has a reasonable answer.

Tim Jones

tim.jones · Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject:

Once again I let fly with both barrels over a fairly innocuous response. I guess I thought you were being condescending. Now that I step back and reflect I think the Nazi was Ernst Modl and not Wilhelm Monke. I better go back and check that, eh? Wow, what a buffoon I can be sometimes. Realistically, the name Wilhelm Monke is, maybe, as common in Germany as the Christian/Surname combination . . .

Tim Jones

Charlesl20 · Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject:

No, General Wilhelm Monke of the SS was a war criminal (Though he escaped justice and lived a free man to his death in 2001). But, rest assured SS General Wilhelm Monke is not the same Wilhelm Monke involved in trumpet making. The SS General did not make musical instruments.

From what I can determine, there were two Wilhelms in the Josef Monke family. It would appear he had a brother Wilhelm, and he had a son Wilhelm. Neither of them appear to have served in the SS, but either could have very possibly decided to make instruments. Does anyone know more?

Charles