Natural trumpet "myth"

[brassbow]

I had just downloaded a copy of The Brandenburg#2 in F maj and in looking at it I think there is a mistake in how we think about Baroque trumpeting. Looking at the beginning measure, the tromba ( trumpet) part starts on middle c then up to an e then g. On Modern trumpets this part of the overtone series starts at c in the staff. Now is viewing Natural trumpets in F you can see that they are about 6 feet or more of tubing, as compared to a modern F trumpet which if unbent would be about less then 3 feet. Now to the point. I think we are playing baroque music to high then what was intended. In looking at the partials I believe the modern Bb player should transpose down a 4th instead of up a 5th. This part was written for f trumpet, to transpose for Bb go down a 4th not up a 5th.
Example as written = C for F trumpet. To play it with a Bb, F concert = G. To match the concept partial G is below the staff. This would make the written high D's playable as an A above the staff. Well within the range of the original concept AND the abilities of most players.
_________________
Zues cornet
R Stewart Eb bugle
Holton collegiate trumpet
Continental baritone
Clevland Inst. co. mellophone
G/F valveless trumpet
C/Bb valveless herald's trumpet
Eb Grand Rapids ( york) tuba
gemshorn
YES I PLAY THEM ALL!!!

[7cw]

..

[_TrumpeT_]

I completely disagree with your statement, brassbow. There are lots of harder music than the Brandenburg for the natural trumpet like Michael Haydn in D, Richter concerto, Querfurth, Riepel, etc.

[brassbow]

I am not saying the Brandenburg is a hard or easy piece. IMHO I believe that the possiblity of modern trumpeters playing in the extreme upper register may be wrong. Yes a natrual trumpet plays in the Clarino, but I am begining to feel that baroque music as played on a piccalo trumpet MAY BE to high as was originally conceived. In looking at the harmonic series on an Natural Trumpet ( unless I am way off but don't think so) the CGC harmonics start at the bottom of the staff, not at the top as seen on a modern trumpet. Thus the harmonic scale would start in the staff not above it. With that in mind again IMO this places the natrual trumpet Clarino in the range of a modern trumpet not above it.
please look at the link about the harmonic series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)
_________________
Zues cornet
R Stewart Eb bugle
Holton collegiate trumpet
Continental baritone
Clevland Inst. co. mellophone
G/F valveless trumpet
C/Bb valveless herald's trumpet
Eb Grand Rapids ( york) tuba
gemshorn
YES I PLAY THEM ALL!!!

[robert_white]

Brassbow, look at 7cw's post again. He spells it out perfectly.

[trpt.hick]

Brassbow,

No disrespect, but your logic is wrong. I encourage you to borrow a good Baroque trumpet replica and play some of the trumpet parts by Bach, Telemann, Handel, et al. You will find that the harmonics line up with the high register on the modern trumpet.

As a starter, push down valves 1 & 3 on your B-flat trumpet. Now, play the Brandenburg in the original key as though you are playing a natural trumpet. (This is, in fact, the same overall length of tubing as the natural trumpet in F, although Baroque pitch was about a half-step flat compared to modern tuning.) You will find out within the first few notes that the ONLY way the written harmonics can be played is in the staff -- ABOVE what pitches are written for the original trumpet.

This is true of all of the other Baroque, Rococo, and Classical works written for trumpet. To indirectly imply that Tarr, Smithers, Ekland, Immer, ad many others have it wrong is silly. Also, your logic means that all of the solo recordings of original Baroque works by Andre, Marsalis, Wallace, Hardenberger, and many others are wrong, not to mention the thousands of conductors and trumpeters that have performed and recorded orchestral works by Bach, Handel, Purcell, Haydn, Mozart, etc., etc.

Dave Hickman

[swthiel]

While it is probably foolish for me to try to add anything to what Prof. Hickman posted above, I do think it's worth noting (1) that modern trumpet playing is part of a continuous tradition that extends back to well before Bach's time, and (2) that a key part of that tradition is the teacher-student interaction guiding the students' interpretations of the repertoire. It seems inconceivable that we would have "lost" Bach's original intent in favor of taking it up an octave.

Oh, and (3) if you listen to the interplay among the solo instruments, I think it would at best odd sound if the trumpet were hanging around an octave below the other solo instruments.
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Steve Thiel

[trumpetart]

Brassbow,
I believe that your confusion stems from a historical pecularity of trumpet musical notation.

Modern trumpets in A, B-flat, and C (as well as small modern E-flat, D trumpets, etc.) are notated so that the 1st ledger below the staff is the 2nd partial.

Long trumpets like the natural trumpet and romantic-era valve trumpets in F, E-flat, E, etc. were always notated so that the 4th partial was C, 1st ledger line below the staff. Thus the written E on the bottom line of the staff would have been played open. That's why trumpet parts by Strauss, Wagner, and others often descend way below the staff.

BTW, there are rare, confusing exceptions to this rule, so that once in a blue moon you will find an F trumpet part that transposes down instead of up.
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Daniel Gianola-Norris

[trumpetart]

[swthiel]

Cool ... I learned something here today!
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Steve Thiel

[trpt.hick]

Some of the confusion about Baroque trumpet playing stemed from the so-called "Bach trumpet" made by Werner Menke. It was a modern trumpet trumpet with two rotary valves. Back in the early part of the 20th century, this was perhaps the best instrument to play the Baroque repertoire. Because of the name "Bach trumpet," some people thought that J. S. Bach and others actually used this type of instrument in their orchestras.

I have often heard people, even professional trumpeters (!), call the modern piccolo B-flat trumpet a "Baroque trumpet." How stupid.

DH

[cjl]

brassbow,

Your conjecture is not unique. If I recall correctly, I attended a lecture at the 1988 ITG conference at NTSU where the presenter attempted to argue the same thing - that the Brandenburg should be played an octave lower than is always heard.

I don't remember his name; I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home.

[Brian Moore]

Random thoughts...

I have a recollection that the recording of Brandenburg 2 with Benjamin Britten conducting (done in the 1960's) has a French horn playing the trumpet part, i.e., an octave lower than we normally hear. Although I must have heard this at some point, I can't remember it, but I'm sure that you'd lose the delicious 'invertible counterpoint' and interplay between the recorder, violin and trumpet, if the trumpet part is played an octave lower.

Mahler (amongst many others) often specified trumpet in F, and there's no doubt that the 19th century F-trumpet sounded HIGHER than written ... this does follow on directly from the tradition of trumpet-making. For centuries, nearly all trumpets were in D (sounding a tone up from 'concert pitch'). The orchestral F-trumpet developed from a shortened version of the 'long' D trumpet (via the keyed trumpet of Weidinger).

Interestingly, the Bb trumpet parts which occasionally crop up in music from Mozart's time and modern Bb trumpet parts sound at the same pitch as each other, despite Mozart's trumpeters having 9ft-long trumpets (7ft D trumpets crooked down to Bb), and modern Bb trumpets being only 4.5ft long.

Brassbow, as a general rule, you can assume that Bb & A trumpet parts sound lower than written, D, Eb, E & F parts sound higher than written. Even if the tradition of clarino playing was lost in the late 18th century, the legacy of the instruments lived on, & is pretty well researched and documented. The physics of the harmonic series tells us what is possible on these instruments. It's not a myth.

Brian Moore

[brassbow]

This is turning into an interesting debate:) so I am not taking offence at all.
Trumpetart: You menioned that written music for baroque trumpet places the CGC partial at the bottom of the staff. If so that would clear things up. I have a copy of the Abblassen(sp) fanfare that starts on f in the staff. If what your saying is true .
ALL posters For the sake of argument:
The Aida trumpet was called the BACH trumpet and was made shorter then a natarul trumpet to play high
If you look at my icon I am playig a king 1920's natural trumpet in G. If I pull the slide to the bell it becomes F In looking at "real" F trumpets it looks like they have at least a foot more then my King, Therfore would give strenghth to my original comment

trp.hick Not saying the greats are wrong, The pic sounds great on baroque music. I am saying HMMMM could they be mistaken?
Basicaly right now it could be a preference. For an example of taste, a trumpet in the 19th century was frowned apon as to bright and brittle. H.L. Clarke made a mention of this horrible sound and how it is not to be played as a solo instrument. Thus the cornet was the prefered solo instrument as was the Eb cornet as the virtuoso sopraniano(sp) instrument. It wasn't until players like Mendez made the trumpet accepted in the main stream.
One thing I have noticed is in recordings of Naturals is they sound like a regular trumpet not a pic. Yes for the instrument they are in the Clarino.In the modern instrument the clarino starts at C above the staff, while it sounds that a natural's clarino starts below the staff.
From what I understand the Clarino is defined as to where the true scale begins c.d.e.f. etc
_________________
Zues cornet
R Stewart Eb bugle
Holton collegiate trumpet
Continental baritone
Clevland Inst. co. mellophone
G/F valveless trumpet
C/Bb valveless herald's trumpet
Eb Grand Rapids ( york) tuba
gemshorn
YES I PLAY THEM ALL!!!

[brassbow]

just found this on ITG
http://www.trumpetguild.org/pdf/2002journal/0206baroque.pdf
_________________
Zues cornet
R Stewart Eb bugle
Holton collegiate trumpet
Continental baritone
Clevland Inst. co. mellophone
G/F valveless trumpet
C/Bb valveless herald's trumpet
Eb Grand Rapids ( york) tuba
gemshorn
YES I PLAY THEM ALL!!!

[tpetplyr]

[Biber]

[Biber]

[Nonsense Eliminator]

There are two separate issues here.

The first is the general case. Here there is absolutely no argument. None. We have the instruments; we have the music that was written for them. There is only one octave in which the notes used by composers correspond exactly with the notes available on the instrument, and that is the octave in which the music is always played. Arguing otherwise is like suggesting that the sun rises in the west. There is simply no debate on this question.

The second is the specific case of the 2nd Brandenburg. Here things get slightly fuzzier. On at least one occasion, Bach labelled the part "tromba o vero corno da caccia", that is, "trumpet or else hunting horn." There are two ways to interpret this statement. The first, and by far the most common, is that Bach intended the part to be performed sounding a fourth higher than written on trumpet, but was prepared to accept a performance on horn sounding a fifth lower. The other interpretation, and the one which coincides with brassbow's theory, is that Bach wouldn't have accepted an octave transposition, and the part would have to have sounded a fifth lower than written on the horn, so he must have intended the part to sound a fifth lower on trumpet as well.

Problem is, I can't think of a single piece of evidence to support the second interpretation. In particular, this would mean that Bach wrote a concerto for an instrument totally unlike the one he wrote dozens and dozens of pieces for, and to my knowledge nobody alive today has ever seen such an instrument. You can certainly make the argument that Bach would have tolerated a performance in the lower octave, but it's awfully difficult to claim that he would have preferred it.
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO

[lengelke]

Brassbow,

In addition to seconding the posts by Dave Hickman and Richard Sandels that cearly make the case that the parts are clearly performed in the correct octave, I have to point out that if you are looking at a transposed copy of Reiche's famous Abblasen.

This fanfare survives because of the painting Reiche's by E.G. Haussmann.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/Gottfried_reiche.jpg

I could only find a copy of this on wikipedia in a quick look, but it is common knowledge that the fanfare begins on third space C (not F). If you play this fanfare in the sounding tonality of D major, then you can read the music on an A piccolo trumpet (as written on the music you have).

LE