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C Bach Strads played with Bb slides



 
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Billy Trumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: C Bach Strads played with Bb slides Reply with quote

I would greatly appreciate comments from people who have used vintage or newer C Bach Strads with Bb slides. Is there a consensus on pros and cons of such a setup? I have an old one with a 239 bell, which was previously owned by an orchestral player. Did classical trumpet players often just change slides, rather than switch from a Bb horn to a C? I hoped to use it for jazz, yet when I play, it sounds a bit like it would rather play Wagner. It has a fat sound, which still seems to be evolving. (Or maybe it's me, sl-o-o-o-wly evolving.)
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: C Bach Strads played with Bb slides Reply with quote

Billy Trumpet wrote:
Did classical trumpet players often just change slides, rather than switch from a Bb horn to a C?

You mean kind of like a mute change?

I think most people learn to transpose instead. I have a triple key piccolo and I find that changing the slides is something that takes time and care, so I would never consider changing in a concert.

I intended to get a set of slides when I purchased my C, but I was talked out of it. One of the people recommending against was the store owner where I intended to order them. He also plays the trumpet.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I owned a set of Bb slides for my Bach 239 Strad and the intonation with them wasn't very good. The conversion might work for someone who played C 99% of the time and needed a Bb to mess around on, but I'm sure any orchestral player worth his salt would just buy a good Bb trumpet in addition to his C.

I sold my set on eBay last year.

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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good B-flat trumpet is something more than a C-trumpet with longer slides. A very important and often overlooked detail is where to exactly solder the braces and soundposts on the instrument. These spots (where to place them) are not the same for both pitches.
The other way around is also true: just cutting a B-flat trumpet's slides in order to convert the instrument into a C trumpet is not enough. All the braces have to be moved and resoldered as well.

In general this is one of the reasons double pitched instruments like A/Bb piccolos, F/G trumpets or Eb/D trumpets work better in one pitch than in the other. For a "low" instrument like a C/Bb trumpet it gets even harder to balance things out for both pitches.
However, Bb/A trumpets and multiple pitch cornets used to be quite popular around the turn of the century.

MvW


Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
A good B-flat trumpet is something more than a C-trumpet with longer slides. A very important and often overlooked detail is where to exactly solder the braces and soundposts on the instrument....
In general this is one of the reasons double pitched instruments like A/Bb piccolos, F/G trumpets or Eb/D trumpets work better in one pitch than in the other. For a "low" trumpet like a C/Bb things get even more difficult to balance out for both pitches.

Another very important part that doesn't change with a set of slides is the leadpipe. A C trumpet leadpipe isn't suited to the additional length of a Bb trumpet. As an elaboration of your second point, I have an Olds Eb trumpet with a custom-made D slide, and I think it plays better in D than in Eb. It shouldn't, but it does.


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Billy Trumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: C trumpets Reply with quote

To: Posters. Thanks for your replies.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten may well be correct, but what then, does that say for those of us with tuning bell trumpets and no bracing?!
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
Maarten may well be correct, but what then, does that say for those of us with tuning bell trumpets and no bracing?!


FWIW and just giving a couple of examples of what I've experienced:

-Many people (myself included) prefer the response and sound of Schilke fixed bell C and Bb trumpets to similar tuning bell models. A matter of taste, I know.
-My two reversed LP Bach C trumpets (with a displaced second bell brace) play considerably better if I put a removable soundpost between the bell and the tuningslide. Some notes, especially the high B-natural, C-natural and C-sharp, simply fall better into place and the low register responds quicker when playing softly. Malone type reversed pipes (i.e. sleeve over tuningslide pipe) are ideal, because they maintain the original place of the bell brace.
-Many odd note problems (i.e. pitch or sound color) on C or Bb trumpets can be improved a lot by moving either the third slide to tuning slide connection, or the bell tube to first slide connection to the exact right place.
-My Selmer piccolo started to sound a lot better and free-er since I removed the bell to fourth valve connection.
-Bb or C trumpet tuning slides without soundpost change the overall response of the instrument dramatically, resulting in wider slotting and a slightly brighter but richer sound. Great if you want a "completely" different Bach trumpet for certain occasions without having to spend a lot of money on a whole new instrument!

Just to illustrate how big an impact right/wrong or heavy/light bracing has on the total response of an instrument.

MvW.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

re: Maarten's reply above.

The first Schilke Bb I purchased (with Renold's assistance) was a B3 in 1969. I was a senior in HS. Some time around 1976 it vibrated off of an old Kustom PA column during a rock band gig, then was actually sat on a few weeks later. I took it back to the shop and was told the leadpipe needed to be replaced so with the other dent work involved I had it converted to tuning bell. I have never been unhappy with that move.

A couple of years earlier one of my HS friends sold me his CXL which I have been using as my standard axe in orch ever since. I have and have played fixed and tuning bell models and keep coming back to this.

Around the time Yamaha began making serious pro line trumpets, one of their designers (I'm almost certain his name was Kawasaki...) came around to a convention here with the various valve bodies, bells and pipes and several of us experimented with the different set ups. He also had a couple of handfulls of movable braces or sound posts to play with. I used to experiment with those on my tuning bell models and there would be a noticable difference, at least for a while. I never felt it made enough difference over the long run for me to keep using or experimentihg with them, however, nor to return to a fixed bell horn.

Again, just a matter of preference. This is another area where I like to try using instruments or variations in the dark so I can not already have a preconceived notion. I've discovered several times that when a person does not know what they are playing or hearing, they often reach different conclusions than when they are certain of what is being played.

Confusing? I've mentioned it several times in other threads, but a committee of good college and university teachers and players continually chose a particular model trumpet over the others on which I was performing excerpts until I turned off the lights in the recital hall and played them all again in the dark. (These were the same Yamaha "prototypes" discussed above, brought to the campus by the district factory rep.) I could obviously tell my own trumpetn the dark but could not tell the difference between the other 3. When my colleagues did not know which instrument was being used, their unanimous choice for all categories was the trumpet I already owned. I had a similar incident with piccolo trumpets as well, although I did not own one at the time. I did after that evening. Try it with your colleagues. Make the test a blind one. It is one way to get a completely unbiased and honest opinion.
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Biber
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would tend to think that a C trpt with Bb slides set up doesn't work because of its ill-proportioned ratio (rather, less than optimal) of cylindrical to conical bore. Certainly more so than any aspect of bracing or lack thereof.

B
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig,

Your blind test is absolutely solid, but personally I could never make brace-less tuning bell trumpets work for me. It would be nice to do the same test played by me on different models, with you listening in the hall...

Kawasaki working for Yamaha, hmmm, what's in a name.

Best wishes,
MvW.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
Craig,

Your blind test is absolutely solid,.....

In this example, I don't think so. Playing 4 horns, three of which you've never played before and one that you're thoroughly familiar and comfortable with, is not a valid test. You're bound to sound better (initailly, at least) on the horn you've played for years.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
Craig,

Your blind test is absolutely solid,.....

In this example, I don't think so. Playing 4 horns, three of which you've never played before and one that you're thoroughly familiar and comfortable with, is not a valid test. You're bound to sound better (initailly, at least) on the horn you've played for years.


Yeah, point taken!
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I had the horns for 2 weeks and Larry C. came to Bemidji to pick them up. I got to take them with me from the convention in May since it was the last one before summer. He was coming to Grand Rapids (MN) for some recreation with one of the players and Bemidji is about an hour west. I stated it wrong above, Dale, it is important and he is absolutely correct. Sorry I made things appear so nonchalant. We’d all be more observant and thorough when $1600 or so is in the balance. I think that is how we buy mouthpieces, not trumpets...

I also believe the best advice is to buy a Bb as well as a C. IMO, an Eb and D trumpet will often be called upon to play music of similar styles, at least on this side of the pond, so the conversion slides seem to work. (I believe the Eb cornet is more widely used east of New Yawk Ciddy for the brass band literature than a trumpet, correct?) Styles and genre for C v Bb, however, will be much more different unless one merely buys the C to make playing in church "easier". Transposing or not, I would not want to use my C, even with Bb slides in a big band or combo. I haven't had reason to try it, though. Who knows?

As for me making a statement that something I have not tried would never work for me, though- it would absolutely ruin my entire blind test theory altogether. (Now, after making that statement, I don't want any of you trying to hook me up with Larry Craig, even though we're both NRA members...)
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Craig, and I stand corrected. I have a significant amount of "book learning" and some experience in the area of testing and statistical analysis, so sometimes I'm a little quick to jump on what I see as faulty method.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would be great to organize Craig's test over a weekend or so with lots of players trying different "tools" in a concert hall. Unfortunatelly I'm a bit too far away.
I might borrow/steal your idea to play test with some colleagues here though.

Now I'm off to the opera,
MvW.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like a study for ITG to me. It would make a great session at one of the conventions, it would surprise me if it hasn't already been done some time in the past. It should be easy to organize. Someone call Jeff. (Tell him you came up with the idea, I don't care.)

Can you imagine? A large group of trumpet players reaching a consensus on anything? I'd like to be there. Suppose the Monettes would take all honors if it was dark and no one knew what they were listening to? Or the LB 229/25H? ML 37? I wonder how many horn makers would really want to enter their instruments in a test of this sort?

Of course there would need to be various categories: Orchestral, Large Chamber, Small Chamber, Brass Band, Wind Ensemble, Jazz Combo, Big Band Lead, Big Band Solo, Big Band Section, Marching/DCI, Recording; the field is wide open. I'd think there'd be a riot at the conclusion of the first test. It would be something to see.
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schalltrichterauf
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own a 1970's Bach Strad C-trumpet with a 239 bell and a B-flat 43 leadpipe. It's my all-time favorite horn (and other orchestral players have coveted it more than once over the years).

It started with a 25A pipe as a least-of-evils after I also tried 25 and 25H pipes, all of which seemed very constricted to me. When I was in music school, a handful of trumpeters ordered #43 B-Flat pipes with crooks which had the top cut short to accomodate the longer taper of the B-flat leadpipe. (So the bottom of the crook fits normally, but the top is cut short and goes into the leadpipe only about an inch. I've considered getting a tuning bell to give me more intonation flexibility, but never got around to trying this.)

This leadpipe arrangement gave me a horn which is much more open than most C's I've tried, but without too little back pressure. Intonation is very good, response is fabulous, and the horn has a huge sound that got me as close to the rich, fat '50's-'60's Chicago Symphony sound as I'll ever get. I always thought Schilke C's were too light and bright, so this is the perfect horn for me. I probably just got lucky installing this B-flat pipe, so I've counted my blessings many times and will never change anything about this horn again.

So you're right, the horn is probably more suited to Wagner (unless you plan on buying a rotary). But I've played some jazz and even played in the horn section of a rock/soul band without feeling like the sound is wrong (with a shallower mouthpiece of course).

Good luck getting used to your horn -- and if you can't, I'm sure you'll be able to find an orchestral player who would be tempted by it!

And I agree with all who advised you to own separate C and B-flat horns!

Good luck and all the best,
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David

Horns: Bach CL 239 w/Melk pipe, Schagerl C Hörsdorf Heavy, Bach Bb 72/43, L.A. Benge 3X, Melk/Bach E-flat/D w/239 bells, Schilke P5-4 picc, Chinese trumpet with scary-faced bell.
Teachers: Alvin Lowrey, Irving Sarin, Robert Nagel
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