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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Tongue-lower lip |
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I have seen quite a few cases of "tongue supporting the bottom lip." I think that's what TCE is all about, but I would never recommend it to anybody. The lower lip muscles never develop because you're using the tongue instead. High range is very easy that way, but sound suffers and it falls apart after a while.
It took me 2 years to fully eradicate the tendency to play high notes with my tongue on my bottom lip. Of course, that was my first two years studying with Doc.
I think you just have to be diligent and patient. Your sound and endurance will thank you for it. |
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airdyn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tongue-lower lip |
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Doug Elliott wrote: | I have seen quite a few cases of "tongue supporting the bottom lip." I think that's what TCE is all about, but I would never recommend it to anybody. The lower lip muscles never develop because you're using the tongue instead. High range is very easy that way, but sound suffers and it falls apart after a while.
It took me 2 years to fully eradicate the tendency to play high notes with my tongue on my bottom lip. Of course, that was my first two years studying with Doc.
I think you just have to be diligent and patient. Your sound and endurance will thank you for it. |
Doug,
Please remember that Doc's Tongue Types 3 and 4 were rare but used with those having short, stubby lower teeth and rather large lower lips. Perhaps not recommending it to "just" anybody would be more accurate, don't you think? Anyway, Doc noted the types. He would have been the only one to really explain why he included them in his book. |
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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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So you're saying that for some very few people, the tongue may be a necessary crutch to help support the bottom lip if the bottom teeth are too short to provide that support. The question is, where do you draw the line? The TCE advocates would say everyone should play that way. I would think that Doc might have suggested it only as a last resort. As you said,
"...these are not "Reinhardt" tongue types... They are the result of what he observed and classified after many years of looking, talking to and analyzing many great and not so great players."
It would have been easy for me, at the time, to observe that I was playing that way and assume that it was a valid way to play, simply because Doc had catagorized it. But since I know that it's wrong for the vast majority of players, I prefer to keep it as an "exception" and hide it in the back closet, to be brought out only if absolutely necessary. |
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airdyn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: Tongue-lower lip |
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Doug,
I couldn't agree more. What it seems to me with TCE, which I really know NOTHING about (but have seen "drawings",)the tongue replaces one of the lips. In the tongue types of Doc the tongue really does act as a "crutch" as you say, to in effect "replace the lower teeth", not one lip or the other. Since this rare type has no lower teeth to support the mouthpiece where the lower "legs" should occur, the tongue (which will not necessarily penetrate between the teeth and/or the lips, for that matter) becomesthe lower teeth, so to speak. The lower lip can be supported by either the tongue tip or the flat part of the tongue if it rests upon the small teeth below.
All this sounds complicated, but its use is "back in my closet" also.
Thanks for your input.
Dave S. |
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jwilson46 Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 478 Location: Hamilton, Montana
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Several years ago Don Junker and I went to a music store where a TCE guy (the only one I've come across) was giving a presentation (I don't want to use his name). What I remember is that he kept using the words spit and grunt. He could play very loud notes in the Double C range. When he would play an arpeggio up to those notes he would crack most of them. He said that that it took many years for him to learn to play high so he wasn't able to devote time to playing cleanly and musically. He claims many students, one who plays trumpet with a major symphony. This trumpet player is an acquaintance of mine and I called him afterwards about this. He said that he had only one conversation with this guy and it had to do with equipment. Chops were not discussed. He then called the guy and asked him not to use his name as a student.
I don't like to criticize other approaches to playing. We can have intelligent conversations regarding playing and then we are free to make our own conclusions. If I should meet a successful TCE player, I will say congratulations.
John |
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BobList Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 1104 Location: Baltimore, MD
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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At first, I also thought that the tongue replaced the lower lip in TCE, but I understand it is there to actually help support it, not replace it....which brings me to my question...
Doc stated in the Encyclopedia that some types will have the tongue making contact with the lower lip.. My range increased immediately when I found that having the tongue just touching the inside upper area of the lip allowed me to ascend, without any change in sound. I do not "support" the lower lip, my tongue just goes there, tip touching (anchored to ) the top of the teeth, with a high forward tongue arch. Now is this light contact considered bad?.. I don't know, as my playing got better all around. Is this due to a long tongue? or short bottom teeth?
I have extremely crooked bottom teeth ( like Junker), and a very small bite radius in my mouth, because I lost 4 upper and 4 lower rear teeth as a teen to make room for braces....the rest of the teeth were moved back to cover the gaps, and naturally the bite radius got smaller. I guess inversely, that made the tongue very wide and large.
Also, as someone said, the tongue is still NOT between the teeth, really, because the lower lip curls up and over the bottom teeth slightly. If I were to bite straight down, the teeth just skim the tongue, not pinch it.
This seems to be an optimum tongue arch position for me. Before, when I had the tip of the tongue very low, almost to the gully, part of the tongue still contacted the lower lip, because of the roll over.
I dunno. Lower lip contact works for me, but the lip still controls the compression 100%, no "muscle" from the tongue.
Bob L _________________ http://www.JMB-MUSIC.COM
http://gregblackmouthpieces.com/personal.htm |
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jwilson46 Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 478 Location: Hamilton, Montana
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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At one time I would also rest the tip of the tongue against my lower lip. If I pulled it away I lost a couple of high notes. This prevented me from articulating in the upper range. My take is that if at all possible the tongue should not touch the lower lip because there is the danger that the tongue is being used to support the lip which means there is a weakness in that lip. When I decided to break the habit I initially lost a couple of notes until the lower lip muscles built up strength. Those notes returned and I felt much more secure than before.
I'll probably regret this after I hit the Submit button, but the correct spelling is definitely NOT definately. Sorry, but I see this all the time and the teacher in me came out.
John |
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nowave Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 453 Location: brooklyn
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Hello Rich,
Great book. I've yet to be typed but couldn't help diving into the book. A couple of questions for you (if these have already been addressed, forgive me - I did do a search and didn't pull up any info):
-On Day 4, does the same general metronome marking apply (quarter = 50)?
-Also on Day 4, are the rests only 4 beats? It does say to rest frequently, so I'm assuming that it's ok to rest longer....?
-On Day 5, there are no asterisks at the rests indicating to remove the horn from the face. Should there be, or do you keep the horn on the chops for this one?
I'm sure I'll have more soon! Thanks for a great resource.
Steven |
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healey.cj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 2011
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by healey.cj on Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
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nowave wrote: | Hello Rich,
Great book. I've yet to be typed but couldn't help diving into the book. A couple of questions for you (if these have already been addressed, forgive me - I did do a search and didn't pull up any info):
-On Day 4, does the same general metronome marking apply (quarter = 50)?
-Also on Day 4, are the rests only 4 beats? It does say to rest frequently, so I'm assuming that it's ok to rest longer....?
-On Day 5, there are no asterisks at the rests indicating to remove the horn from the face. Should there be, or do you keep the horn on the chops for this one?
I'm sure I'll have more soon! Thanks for a great resource.
Steven |
The original issue of Reinhardt's "Manual of Studies" has no metronome markings. The slow indications are there to keep you from rushing through these drills, and have actually been removed (again) from the books that are going out now.
The rests can be made longer to keep you from getting tired too soon. It's only Days 1, 2, and 3 where you keep the mouthpiece on the face during rests.
From Day 4 on you ought to always take the mouthpiece off your face for rests. On Day 4, you may consider drills 2 and 3 optional if you don't have range up to the E or the G. Day 4 can be particularly taxing if you do all three of those spiderwebs in a row (#s 1, 2 & 3). If you need to stop, by all means stop! Keeping track of your progress in a journal will help avoid discouragement; think "long term" progress, here.
Excellent questions, thank you for asking them. Maybe Dave Sheetz will weigh in on some of these, also. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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nowave Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 453 Location: brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Rich, that clarifies a lot! |
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PhxHorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 2190 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Doug Elliott: I have seen quite a few cases of "tongue supporting the bottom lip." I think that's what TCE is all about, but I would never recommend it to anybody. The lower lip muscles never develop because you're using the tongue instead. High range is very easy that way, but sound suffers and it falls apart after a while.
It took me 2 years to fully eradicate the tendency to play high notes with my tongue on my bottom lip. Of course, that was my first two years studying with Doc. I think you just have to be diligent and patient. Your sound and endurance will thank you for it.
Any specific exercises you did to correct it? In addition to trying to avoid pushing against my lower lip on 'borderline' notes, I'm working on gradually trying to get my jaw forward, since I have quite an overbite. I don't know if that's the issue or not, though. But it seems like it has something to do with it, because my lower lip tends to be behind my upper when I play, and I use my tongue to push it forward and upwards when I play high. I got to wondering what physically goes on when I tongue a high note repeatedly, since I tongue behind my front teeth, and so I figured I'd have to take my tongue off my bottom lip in order to tongue the note. I tried tonguing a high F, and I somehow am able to articulate the note with the tip of my tongue behind my front teeth while keeping an 'underneath' portion my tongue pushed up against the inside of my lower lip. So my tongue seems to be doing two things at once.
Another question for Rich: Day 5, section 2. Are the two articulations meant to be played many times each in separate breaths? Or are the two articulations meant to be alternated over and over? |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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PhxHorn wrote: | Another question for Rich: Day 5, section 2. Are the two articulations meant to be played many times each in separate breaths? Or are the two articulations meant to be alternated over and over? |
I've been doing it: first time tongued, slur the repeat, then alternate tongued/slurred for the duration of the playing breath so that I do my tonguing and slurring all on the same setting.
That's a much more strenuous section than it looks so I don't try to be Superman. I have never made it through all the upper range extremes of #2, but I usually do all of them in the next part (hmm, should be #3, why does it say 4?). _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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healey.cj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 2011
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by healey.cj on Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DSR Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2002 Posts: 267 Location: Canada
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Day 4 of Reinhardt Routines |
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I have a question regarding day four of the book (the spiderweb one).
Each slur has a crescendo or decrescendo written on it without dynamics, and then at the bottom of the page it says alternate between pp, p, mf, and f I believe. Does this mean I start each slur at each of these dynamics levels or what? I never understood this in the Pivot Manual either.
-Brendan |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Day 4 of Reinhardt Routines |
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DSR wrote: | I have a question regarding day four of the book (the spiderweb one).
Each slur has a crescendo or decrescendo written on it without dynamics, and then at the bottom of the page it says alternate between pp, p, mf, and f I believe. Does this mean I start each slur at each of these dynamics levels or what? I never understood this in the Pivot Manual either. |
I can only make an educated guess, based on what Doc told me in lessons. With that much sustained work all in a row, I'm thinking he wanted us to vary our dynamics so that we covered them all during that part of the drill.
That is a very strenuous workout for sure, so I hope you are being "polite" and getting up from the table while you're still hungry. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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iambrassman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2005 Posts: 591 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Day 4 of Reinhardt Routines |
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BeboppinFool wrote: | ...That is a very strenuous workout for sure, so I hope you are being "polite" and getting up from the table while you're still hungry. |
Is stopping exercises with a little (or a lot) of gas left in the tank a basic principle of the Reinhardt system? (It makes a lot of sense to me.)
Another question: Speaking of using the tip of the tongue to 'occassionally / momentary need' support the lower lip in the extreme upper register...
healey.cj wrote: | ...I believe Herbert L Clarke (among others) used this as a extreme-register 'trick' to give them a little boost, but only in the extremes. |
Is that compatible with Reinhardt?
The reason I have suddenly surfaced in your forum is this: I studied Callet in the early years, and found it worked well. I studied BE, and found it worked well. As Callet's system became more radical, I did not come along for the ride. I now play a 'stranded embouchure system that is very similar to my original natural system'. I naturally played with a tonging on lips attack, naturally used my tongue in the extreme register to support my lips, but until I get to the G or A over high C I appear to fit the IIIA descriptor, and within the staff and below I seem to fit the I(A?) descriptor (though I have used pedal tones as true notes for 20+ years simply by continuing to roll my lower lip out as I descend). Any help in understanding how learning more about Reinhardt's approach could help is appreciated.
healey.cj wrote: | ...I believe it is a Super-chops setup but how different Superchops is from TCE I can't work out...Chris |
You are not alone. I studied Callet's old systems and Superchops for almost 20 years, then tried to master TCE for a year, and I can't work out how close/far they are from each other... hence my interest in this forum. (Those espousing Reinhardt seem to be much more specific in their choice of descriptors for embouchure mechanics, which is appealing.) _________________ Jim "IAmBrassman" Utley
Callet Jazz 0.470" /
Greg Black made John Blount Personal Mpc
Last edited by iambrassman on Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Day 4 of Reinhardt Routines |
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iambrassman wrote: | Is stopping exercises with a little (or a lot) of gas left in the tank a basic principle of the Reinhardt system? (It makes a lot of sense to me.) |
Yes. If you always put your horn down while the chops are feeling "fresh" then your muscle memory (Sensation Theory and all) remembers that "fresh" feeling when you pick the horn back up again. If you wait until you've destroyed your chops to put the horn down (we're talking in the practice room), then your muscle memory remembers that "crushed" feeling.
Your other concerns . . . some of it waaaay non-Reinhardt stuff . . . somebody Reinhardt-savvy yet having served time under Callet needs to respond to those. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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jwilson46 Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 478 Location: Hamilton, Montana
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Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | If you always put your horn down while the chops are feeling "fresh" then your muscle memory (Sensation Theory and all) remembers that "fresh" feeling when you pick the horn back up again. If you wait until you've destroyed your chops to put the horn down (we're talking in the practice room), then your muscle memory remembers that "crushed" feeling.
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I had never heard that before but it makes a lot of sense. I have a tendency to overdo it when practicing. I need to practice a little more self discipline in this regard.
John |
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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1172 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Reinhardt |
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iambrassman, you can't seriously study Reinhardt's methods while thinking that you can somehow combine it with approaches like Calllet, TCE, BE, or while practicing pedals,or being a "mouthpiece of the day" type of player as your signature says.
There may be some similarities here and there, but none of them are compatible with the rules of the Pivot System, such as playing only one embouchure type (and knowing what that means). None of the other "systems" consider the different types at all. Lots of things work temporarily. Reinhardt taught what will work for the rest of your life, and for the full range of the horn.
A good start would be to pick just one mouthpiece, and stop playing pedals. Then you can learn about IIIA if that is indeed your type, and learn to play that way from low F# to DHC.
No amount of describing what you do and getting random advice here will replace actual lessons with someone who truly understands the Pivot System. |
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