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Buescher True Tone trumpet mouthpieces of the 1920s



 
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beaukoo
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Buescher True Tone trumpet mouthpieces of the 1920s Reply with quote

I'm still occasionally putting together information on the old Buescher True Tone trumpets, and noticed some interesting things related to the development of their small-shank mouthpieces.

The earliest True Tone trumpet mouthpieces (circa 1919-1920) I have seen are the sharp edged "cookie-cutter" variety, similar to contemporary cornet mouthpieces. From the early to the mid-1920s, the sharp edges are more rounded but the rim stays very flat and wide. By 1928, Buescher True Tone mouthpieces more closely resemble the Bach style. However, throughout the 1920s, the mouthpieces are all smaller diameter-shanked. With the True Tones in my collection, it is difficult to insert a standard shank mouthpiece into the receiver.
Also throughout the 1920s, a Buescher trumpet "kit" included (as well a a cleaning rod, lubricant tin, mute, and cornet shank adapters) two mouthpieces. The space for the mouthpieces usually places them "head to head" on either side of the valve block. My guess is that they would include a 6A and 6B as the "standard" and had other more specific mouthpieces for more custom orders.

These are the mouthpieces that I've found so far:

6A - shallow (approximately 1/4" deep)
6B - deeper (approximately 1/16" deeper than the 6A)
6-1/2 - same depth as the 6B
30-7 - more closely resembles the Bach style mouthpiece

Does anyone out there have any other 1920s vintage True Tone mouthpieces with other numbers?

Dave Brewer
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drewD
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it's an old topic but I've got a 6CB True Tone mouthpiece that came with my 1927 Buescher model 8. Not sure on any approx. dimensions on the cup depth as it's in the shop at the moment, but is seems quite a bit deeper than the Bach 3D I used in high school.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 17 with the smaller shank. The 17 was a 30s piece, I think... they may have made some in both shank sizes after they moved to the larger size.

Tom
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Buescher Lightweight 400
Other Buescher horns 1939--1955
Al Cass 1-28 mouthpiece
Humes and Berg mutes
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Axelip
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
I have a 17 with the smaller shank. The 17 was a 30s piece, I think... they may have made some in both shank sizes after they moved to the larger size.

Tom


Heck I didn't know the 17 had been available in the small shank at all. And I thought they came out about the same time as the first Aristocrat horn, in 1930. For some reason I had been under the impression that Buescher moved from cookie-cutter small-shank mouthpieces to cookie-cutter large-shank mouthpieces, and during that time the two shank sizes were available. But I guess there would have been an extended period where Buescher felt obliged to offer any of its trumpet mouthpieces in both size shanks.

I don't know much about the '20s horns. By the time the First Aristocrat horn came out (about 1930) Buescher had started using a three-digit model number system; I wonder if they started using the three-digit model #s when they started making the horns with the large-shank receivers?
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Axelip wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
I have a 17 with the smaller shank. The 17 was a 30s piece, I think... they may have made some in both shank sizes after they moved to the larger size.

Tom


Heck I didn't know the 17 had been available in the small shank at all. And I thought they came out about the same time as the first Aristocrat horn, in 1930. For some reason I had been under the impression that Buescher moved from cookie-cutter small-shank mouthpieces to cookie-cutter large-shank mouthpieces, and during that time the two shank sizes were available. But I guess there would have been an extended period where Buescher felt obliged to offer any of its trumpet mouthpieces in both size shanks.

I don't know much about the '20s horns. By the time the First Aristocrat horn came out (about 1930) Buescher had started using a three-digit model number system; I wonder if they started using the three-digit model #s when they started making the horns with the large-shank receivers?


Actually, there were Aristocrats with two-digit model numbers.

Tom
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Buescher Lightweight 400
Other Buescher horns 1939--1955
Al Cass 1-28 mouthpiece
Humes and Berg mutes
http://mmccband.org
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Axelip
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
Axelip wrote:
VetPsychWars wrote:
I have a 17 with the smaller shank. The 17 was a 30s piece, I think... they may have made some in both shank sizes after they moved to the larger size.

Tom


Heck I didn't know the 17 had been available in the small shank at all. And I thought they came out about the same time as the first Aristocrat horn, in 1930. For some reason I had been under the impression that Buescher moved from cookie-cutter small-shank mouthpieces to cookie-cutter large-shank mouthpieces, and during that time the two shank sizes were available. But I guess there would have been an extended period where Buescher felt obliged to offer any of its trumpet mouthpieces in both size shanks.

I don't know much about the '20s horns. By the time the First Aristocrat horn came out (about 1930) Buescher had started using a three-digit model number system; I wonder if they started using the three-digit model #s when they started making the horns with the large-shank receivers?


Actually, there were Aristocrats with two-digit model numbers.

Tom


Now that you mention it, I've seen a few of those, wrapped like the Aristocrat but not engraved so. Hmm. Next time I see one I'll pay close attention to the serial number. I had thought the model was first introduced in 1930, but maybe the Aristocrat horns - whether called that or not - were floating around a while before then. BeauKoo thinks the Bach-style pieces were around by 1928; on the next-to-last page of the 1930 trumpet & cornet brochure there's a printer's date of December 1929. Wouldn't surprised me if they had already released a few Aristocrats into the wild to see how they fared.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually... single digit. Early Aristocrats were Model 2.

Why? Who knows?

Tom
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Other Buescher horns 1939--1955
Al Cass 1-28 mouthpiece
Humes and Berg mutes
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king leopardi
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]
Now that you mention it, I've seen a few of those, wrapped like the Aristocrat but not engraved so. Hmm. Next time I see one I'll pay close attention to the serial number. I had thought the model was first introduced in 1930, but maybe the Aristocrat horns - whether called that or not - were floating around a while before then. BeauKoo thinks the Bach-style pieces were around by 1928; on the next-to-last page of the 1930 trumpet & cornet brochure there's a printer's date of December 1929. Wouldn't surprised me if they had already released a few Aristocrats into the wild to see how they fared.[/quote]

Weren't the earliest Aristocrats narrow wraps (like the Conn New Era trumpets)?

Dave Brewer (formerly beaukoo)
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Dave, they were.

Tom
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Buescher Lightweight 400
Other Buescher horns 1939--1955
Al Cass 1-28 mouthpiece
Humes and Berg mutes
http://mmccband.org
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king leopardi
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drewD wrote:
I know it's an old topic but I've got a 6CB True Tone mouthpiece that came with my 1927 Buescher model 8. Not sure on any approx. dimensions on the cup depth as it's in the shop at the moment, but is seems quite a bit deeper than the Bach 3D I used in high school.


Does it have the flatter rim or is the cup more "modern" looking?

Dave Brewer
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Axelip
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
Actually... single digit. Early Aristocrats were Model 2.

Why? Who knows?

Tom


To confuse future generations is my guess.

Quote:
Weren't the earliest Aristocrats narrow wraps (like the Conn New Era trumpets)?

Dave Brewer (formerly beaukoo)


As Tom said, yes. All the Aristocrats were narrow wrapped until the Model 205 came out, which though it may have been designed before WWII didn't really show up until after the war.

Further, as far as I can tell, there were only two base-model Aristocrat wrap configurations before the 205, those like the Mod. 232 (or 2, or 234 etc.) or the Mod. 220 which was introduced in '39 but didn't last. (I'm not counting the "Aristocrat Custom Built" horns that appeared in 1935; those were a little different).

Here's an example of each; the first a large bore Model 234 from about 1937, the second a Model 220 from about '40, and then a Model 205 from '44-45. Whatever the model number / bore size / finish / engraving, narrow-wrap Aristocrat trumpets would have looked about like the Mod. 234 until '39 when the 220 came out. I think, opinion subject to revision, and not including the Custom Built horns.

So, by and large, unless it's a 220 any pre-war Aristocrat you run across that isn't a Custom Built will look like that 234.





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king leopardi
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have any Bueschers any more, but I do wish I had kept my 205. The date was 1942, and it was the earliest one of those I had seen.

Dave Brewer
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

king leopardi wrote:
I don't have any Bueschers any more, but I do wish I had kept my 205. The date was 1942, and it was the earliest one of those I had seen.

Dave Brewer


Dave, I have seen one on ebay with a prewar serial number!

Tom
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Buescher Lightweight 400
Other Buescher horns 1939--1955
Al Cass 1-28 mouthpiece
Humes and Berg mutes
http://mmccband.org
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drewD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

king leopardi wrote:
drewD wrote:
I know it's an old topic but I've got a 6CB True Tone mouthpiece that came with my 1927 Buescher model 8. Not sure on any approx. dimensions on the cup depth as it's in the shop at the moment, but is seems quite a bit deeper than the Bach 3D I used in high school.


Does it have the flatter rim or is the cup more "modern" looking?

Dave Brewer


It has a more modern look. I don't think it's the original piece for this horn, I think they were still using the cookie cutter type in 1927. It is the small-shanked style though, so it fits in the receiver as it should.





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Axelip
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, are those pics of the Model 8? Couldn't quite make out the model # in the pic.

Nice horn!!

That helps, though. 1927 horn spec'd for the small shank pieces.

My questions are:

1. When exactly did they switch to the larger shank?
2. What was the first new horn model made exclusively with the larger receiver?
3. Was there an overlap where they were making new horns with large receivers and new examples (of older models) with the small receivers? Or did they switch everything at once (more or less)?
4. Or, did they update the older models with larger receivers, give them shiny new model numbers, and those are the horns you see in the 1930 brochure?

I'm thinking that the Aristocrat-style horns are the answer to number 2. Anybody handled one fitted with the small receiver?

I'm also thinking that those horns came out a bit earlier than 1930, with the new Bach-style piece as standard with it. But you could order those mpcs in the smaller shank, and many did because there were stuck with small-receiver horns.
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Axelip
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well a single-digit Aristocrat-wrap trumpet in parts condition just showed up on eBay. A Model #3 with a 260xxx serial. Which according to Horn-u-Copia is about 1931, after Buescher seems to have switched to the three-digit system (going by the '30 brochure).

So there's a dose of mud to cloud the waters just a little; you would expect a '31 horn to have a three-digit serial. If you count on Buescher being consistent. And the available Buescher serial # charts being spot-on, which they probably aren't. I forget the history of the Buescher serial # charts; somewhere or another I read where they came from. Probably on the saxophone forum. They seem pretty accurate but I'm sure not exact.

For kicks, look at what happens to the rate of increase in the serial numbers, year by year, between say 1925 and 1931. As though sales hit a wall or something - gee, wonder what that was?

Here's a link to the eBay auction - the date given is misleading, as 1907 - check it out while it lasts:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=231095725934&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:3160
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Axelip
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By chance I picked up a 198xxx Model 11 rotary A trumpet in excellent condition and with its original case and full kit, including two Buescher mouthpieces. The serial would make it a 1925 or '26 horn.

The mouthpieces have the short-shanks and seat properly in the horn's receiver. Below are pics of the mouthpieces that came with the horn (the two on the left) with three other early Buescher pieces I already had, including one of the old cookie-cutter pieces. They are all short-shank except the #17 on the far right. If you look closely you'll notice that mouthpiece is a little taller than the others, and the proportion of shank length to the rest of the mouthpiece blank is a little different. It's subtle - so subtle that I hadn't realized the #19 was actually a short shank piece until now. But the #17 seats awkwardly in the horn; Doesn't go very far in.

The horn's case has two contoured spaces for mouthpieces that fit the 30-7 and 6CB very snugly. The cookie-cutter piece will not fit properly in them. So by '25-'26, at least, Buescher had not just adopted the more modern style blank, they had started making cases to fit exactly those mouthpieces.

Note that the cookie-cutter fits the horn perfectly and plays it well, too. so when they went to the modern style blank, they don't seem to have otherwise altered the shank specs.

I actually like the rim on that one better than the others, but the 30-7 and 6CB seem to work really well with the horn, too.

Left to right in all pics they are: 30-7; 6CB; 19; 6B; 17.





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