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Upper register and large mouthpieces



 
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erick
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Upper register and large mouthpieces Reply with quote

So I've been practicing the higher register on my standard mouthpiece which is a 16C4-GP. It's a pretty deep bowl, kind of like a 1 and a half cup in Bach terms. So what if I were to use a 3C or a smaller cup? Would I be able to play higher notes? Would this mean that I would have tuning issues?
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Last edited by erick on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn.
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jiarby
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can run a marathon in your black wing tips too.... But why would you? Are those Nikes "cheater shoes"?
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

with a smaller (narrower) diameter one can easier go into the upper register with more endurance too - full stop! (that is why a trombone mpc has a larger id to sound deep!)

With a shallower mouthpiece one will get a sharper sound - full stop! ( I know a lot will insist that shallower will go high alone)

Some get high register with wider id but shallower cup - I can say nothing about that!

My experience are the first two statements.

Other experiences are possible of course - but I think not representative - exeptions to the rule are accepted!

Mouthpiece design has a lot of complicated parameters regarding comfort - but I insist on this simple statements regarding range.

To get all wishes together - sound, attack, flexibility, range - this is another story..

Of course you can get more lip intrusion using deeper cups that will narrow the vibration area too - but that does not mean automatically you get more lip tissue into vibration. It only means to get more tissue in bader blood circulation - here comes cup design into play ( v-cup or normal). I will leave it now to your own conclusions and experiences..
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zackh411
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Upper register and large mouthpieces Reply with quote

erick wrote:
So I've been practicing the higher register on my standard mouthpiece which is a 16C4-GP. It's a pretty deep bowl, kind of like a 1 and a half cup in Bach terms. So what if I were to use a 3C or a smaller cup? Would I be able to play higher notes? Would this mean that I would have tuning issues?


No, you probably wouldn't be able to play much higher, if any at all. Your tuning probably won't change much between those 2 mouthpieces.

Dale Proctor wrote:
A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn.


This is correct.

jiarby wrote:
You can run a marathon in your black wing tips too.... But why would you? Are those Nikes "cheater shoes"?


And this is also correct.
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Yogadidit
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Dale. A smaller cup will make it easier, but for me it sacrifices the tone quality of the high notes. I stick with a middle of the road size mouthpiece that works for me throughout the range. Everyone is different, so a little experimentation is necessary. Don't go to the extremes.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a long held misconception that reducing the diameter of the cup automatically results in higher range. We each have an optimal cup diameter that matches our physiology and embouchure and allows us to maximize our range. Deviating from that optimal diameter reduces our ability to maximize our range.

Changing to a shallower mouthpiece can make it a little easier to produce your existing range but should not be considered a way to increase your range to any significant degree.

You increase your range by developing the technique consistent with increasing range, developing the physical ability to employ that technique and employing that technique through a mouthpiece that is optimal for your physiology and embouchure.

Unless you're playing on a mouthpiece that's clearly wrong for you or on a trumpet that has mechanical issues that compromise the ability to play in the upper register just changing equipment won't do much for you in terms of increasing your range.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn.

Yup.
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wiemelen
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A more shallow cup will usually make playing higher less tiring, but won't necessarily add much to your range. Shallow cups also tend to play a bit sharper, but that varies with the player and the horn.

I tested this after buying my GR 67 CTZ.
This is a mouthpiece with a bigger diameter, shallower cup and pretty big bore.
It has a nice full sound, but plays a lot easier in the upper register.
When I play the CTZ, my sound is a bit sharper then on my regular GR 66.9L.
However a friend of mine who played my horn using my 66.9L and his Bach 1.25C stil sounds much sharper then I do using the CTZ.
So I have no issues using my CTZ (as a cheater mouthpiece like some tend to call it) when it's called for.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, by "sharper", I mean high on the pitch, not a brighter or cutting tone.
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GizB
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Upper register and large mouthpieces Reply with quote

erick wrote:
So I've been practicing the higher register on my standard mouthpiece which is a 16C4-GP. It's a pretty deep bowl, kind of like a 1 and a half cup in Bach terms. So what if I were to use a 3C or a smaller cup? Would I be able to play higher notes? Would this mean that I would have tuning issues?


There's nothing I do on my Laskey 60S (Bach 5-ish) that I can't do on my Laskey 80C (Bach ~1.25), BUT - I can do it easier and longer, and the sound is more appropriate for my funk gig.

I have to pull out a bit more with the 60S, but I don't have a problem playing in tune.

Love them Laskeys!

Giz
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DaveH
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The size, depth, and shape of a mouthpiece cup affects tone more than anything else. It may also have some affect on articulation and endurance. Playable and reliable range will most likely remain pretty much unaffected by a shallower mouthpiece.

If a player can play a certain range, it may be easier and take less effort to produce that same range on a shallower cup.

However, some players may tell you that they can produce a certain range better on a larger cup than a smaller cup - depends on the player.
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gigolaw
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can play the same high notes, with more or less effort, no matter which rim or cup I use. I even have the same range, with less focus, on my flugelhorn. Is a matter of how much do you have to work. But even the most perfect mouthpiece/trumpet combination will not increase your range automatically; in any case they will provide the necessary means for your daily routines to pay off.

A smaller rim will provide more support to the embouchure, so you can expect more endurance and a more comfortable setting for the upper register. With the proper cup and back bore, you might even get that plus a better sound. Believe me, I have seen a few real cases like those in the past few weeks.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
It's a long held misconception that reducing the diameter of the cup automatically results in higher range. We each have an optimal cup diameter that matches our physiology and embouchure and allows us to maximize our range. Deviating from that optimal diameter reduces our ability to maximize our range.

Changing to a shallower mouthpiece can make it a little easier to produce your existing range but should not be considered a way to increase your range to any significant degree.

You increase your range by developing the technique consistent with increasing range, developing the physical ability to employ that technique and employing that technique through a mouthpiece that is optimal for your physiology and embouchure.

Unless you're playing on a mouthpiece that's clearly wrong for you or on a trumpet that has mechanical issues that compromise the ability to play in the upper register just changing equipment won't do much for you in terms of increasing your range.


I could not agree more. Changing diameters to increase range is counter intuitive. The problem for many young players may come from the readily available and reasonably priced used Bach mouthpieces. So if a young player wants to increase range they go from a 3C to a 10 1/2C! Not good. To many variable changes.

Once you find the optimum diameter for your face you can turn up the treble by going to a more shallow cup depth. This usually adds efficiency to your upper range. But you will sacrifice some mid range and low end breath of tone. Tighter back bores can help meter the resistance and add intensity. But these experiments are very expensive these days.

Please think long and hard before changing a cup diameter that is working for you.

Happy New Years!
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Dieter Z
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience is that a tighter throat will add some back pressure to the playing and assist in playing in the higher register.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lots of good points - I would like to point out that the Yamaha 16C4 is not what I would call a deep cup.

I've found Yamaha C cups to be a good all-around depth and have had good success with them in all registers. Of course, other variables are you and the trumpet - how it all works together.

the cup depth for me mostly affects the tone and where the notes "slot" - naturally, the notes we most notice are the ones at the extremes of our range, or are the most finiky.

I am not one that likes the extremely shallow mouthpieces, about as shallow as I get is a Curry 3M, for high parts (big band lead) or picc
~ I often use a Yamaha 14B4 with my picc which feels like it is slightly deeper/rounder
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