| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
thenick2000
Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Arlington, VA
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: Why are high notes hard? |
 |
|
So what's the reason? Why can some players just seem to play high notes for days and some of us have to struggle with them?
Any philosophical or phycological thoughts?
NN
_________________
Nick Nichols
U.S. Army Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
veery715
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 4313
Location: Ithaca NY
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Good question worth a bump!
v |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dan O'Donnell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 2287
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dan Oxley (a great Trumpet player who plays Christian music) has an extremely high range.
I learned the following from him...
Some people have the best natural physical features (chops, teeth etc.) making it much easier to produce very high notes while others don't.
One of several things to support this is his question...
"How many people have studied for several years with great players who have extremely high ranges...and practice intelligently and consistently and yet...can't even come close to their teacher's high notes?"
As for me...I studied with Wayne Bergeron and after many years of playing...I still can't get near his high notes.
I also think about how Wayne had a double "C" in Jr. High School.
At that young age, no one on TH can accurately say that it was due to him studying with a great player with a high range and practicing for many years. 
I recently talked with him after one of his gigs and jokingly said to him...
"Wayne, I want my money back from all of those lessons. I still can't play as high as you!"
He responded...
"Dan, I don't even know how I hit those notes!" 
Simply put...it is my opinion that players can certainly add higher notes to their range through lessons, intelligent and consistent practice etc., however, if you do not possess those natural physical features, it will be very difficult (if not impossible for some) to play up in the extreme range with any power and accuracy.
Now...I'll take my weak range...leave the High Range Development Forum...and go back to the Horn & Mouthpiece Forum and continue my ranting and raving about how a horn and mouthpiece can help to improve the most important part of playing Trumpet...TONE QUALITY...NOT squeaking out the next weak, strained and out of tune high note!!!
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell
"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ProAm
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 950
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| For the purpose of this discussion, what is a "high note"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChuckNorrisOfTrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 654
Location: Random Jungle, Sniping People with Double Cs
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Why are high notes hard? |
|
|
| thenick2000 wrote: | | So what's the reason? Why can some players just seem to play high notes for days and some of us have to struggle with them? |
We're all different people who are made differently. No two person (unless they have a twin) is exactly alike. Therefore some people are built to play high notes and others have to work at it. Some have to work harder than others. Its all about figuring out how to make your body work efficiently and effectively to produce what ever skills on the trumpet you want.
_________________
Yamaha YTR-9335NYS Bb
Yamaha YTR-9445CHS C
Yamaha YTR-946GS Rotary C
Cromer Custom D/Eb
Schilke P5-4 Piccolo
Getzen Bb Cornet
ACB Flugelhorn
"There is no way to realize your potential unless you throw yourself into it" ~Armando Ghitalla |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcgovnor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 2607
Location: ny ny
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: well |
|
|
I must say, with all due respect, natural attributes have absolutely nothing to do with playing in the altissimo range.
Some can play up there easier then others without practicing up there too much or laboring over it.
Others learn how.
Once you know what to do, it is no harder to play up there than anywhere else.
In fact, a solid, in tune, functional, beautiful sounding powerful middle register is the most difficult of all.
If you get the mouthpiece out of the red on the top lip, everything is possible..or..as our man said.."All things are possible.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6204
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ProAm wrote: | | For the purpose of this discussion, what is a "high note"? |
I guess it starts a fifth above anyone's usable range. It is player-specific. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChuckNorrisOfTrumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 654
Location: Random Jungle, Sniping People with Double Cs
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: well |
|
|
| mcgovnor wrote: | I must say, with all due respect, natural attributes have absolutely nothing to do with playing in the altissimo range.
Some can play up there easier then others without practicing up there too much or laboring over it.
Others learn how.
Once you know what to do, it is no harder to play up there than anywhere else.
In fact, a solid, in tune, functional, beautiful sounding powerful middle register is the most difficult of all.
If you get the mouthpiece out of the red on the top lip, everything is possible..or..as our man said.."All things are possible.. |
With all due respect, you basically restated what I did, just differently.
_________________
Yamaha YTR-9335NYS Bb
Yamaha YTR-9445CHS C
Yamaha YTR-946GS Rotary C
Cromer Custom D/Eb
Schilke P5-4 Piccolo
Getzen Bb Cornet
ACB Flugelhorn
"There is no way to realize your potential unless you throw yourself into it" ~Armando Ghitalla |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
INTJ
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1986
Location: Northern Idaho
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
High notes can be hard for a lot of reasons. Here are some of those reasons I have come across and/or experienced:
1. A teacher who thinks only a special few can play high notes
2. The assumption that everyone should play the same way, leading to one being forced to play in a way that doesn't work for them.
3. Lack of practice
4. Practicing the upper range the wrong way
5. Overdoing it
6. Mental blocks
7. Wrong equipment for a certain player. Often associated with #2 above.
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Annie
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 1105
Location: Maryland
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| afp wrote: | High notes can be hard for a lot of reasons. Here are some of those reasons I have come across and/or experienced:
1. A teacher who thinks only a special few can play high notes
2. The assumption that everyone should play the same way, leading to one being forced to play in a way that doesn't work for them.
3. Lack of practice
4. Practicing the upper range the wrong way
5. Overdoing it
6. Mental blocks
7. Wrong equipment for a certain player. Often associated with #2 above. |
I think wrong equipment is definitely part of it - if you're playing on something that is completely wrong for you, you'll struggle on everything.
_________________
~Annie
*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.* |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yamahaguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Why are high notes hard? |
|
|
| thenick2000 wrote: | | So what's the reason? |
Incorrect teaching. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcgovnor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 2607
Location: ny ny
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:40 am Post subject: dugh |
|
|
dearest chuck norris
i love your movies and your politics, but curse me, i missed your post.
and even if i had read it, would it matter? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andiroo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 711
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Why are high notes hard? |
|
|
| Yamahaguy wrote: | | thenick2000 wrote: | | So what's the reason? |
Incorrect teaching. |
I would second this!
_________________
Dizzy kicks brass!
Talent isn't natural, its hard work... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
connicalman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 1668
Location: West Medford, MA
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
'Supplesse', yes the French have a word for it. Strength with flexibility.
The term is used in bike racing. Almost anyone can make a bike go 25 mph. Think of that speed like a 2nd-line C. But to build up the endurance to maintain that speed for a long race requires supple-ness of the legs over and above the aeorobic demands on lung and heart.
There's a home-grown saying: 'Flying in March, dead-legged in June.' That speaks to the pitfalls of overdoing things too soon. And I'd agree that some physiques are better suited for endurance, or range/speed, or power.
Supplesse is the factor required of the embrochure for playing well softly and high. It is a challenge for me. My body gets pumped simply by doing 16-oz curls. But some guys thin out unless they work out 3x a week. They happen to look like that Vizutti guy who can play all day. The one who spins his Yammie while playing 'Carnival of Venice'. Not me 
_________________
kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moshe Mizrachi
Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2009
Posts: 125
Location: Clarksville, Indiana
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Why are high notes hard? |
|
|
| thenick2000 wrote: | So what's the reason? Why can some players just seem to play high notes for days and some of us have to struggle with them?
Any philosophical or phycological thoughts?
NN |
My qualification for answering this question is that I can play Double Cs on a Bach 1-1/2C cornet mouthpiece, although I prefer to use a Bach 5C or Bach 5MV.
As teenager I had to mash my lip with tremendous mouthpiece pressure to just barely play a High C.
It was only when I was about 50 years old, after a 30 year hiatus away from trumpet, that I increased my range from High C to Double High C, and I need only modest mouthpiece pressure to do it.
There are 3 stages in developing a high register.
1 Establish proper technique
2 Develop good muscle memory
3 Develop strong embouchure muscles
Some details are:
1 Proper technique is a complex blend of proper embouchure, proper instrument angle, proper mouthpiece pressure, proper mouthpiece placement, proper mouthpiece choice, and proper breathing.
If even one of those is off, then it can adversely affect ones range.
2- Once you have established proper technique, you must play with that proper technique enough times that you establish good muscle memory. That merely means that you have done it correctly enough times that your embouchure and your arms and your lungs automatically do what is right without your having to consciously do those things.
3 The last step is to play with that correct technique long enough that you develop a tremendously strong embouchure that allows you to play in the upper register all night long. With many trumpet players that embouchure development looks like a muscle donut around the mouth while playing.
There are so many variables in the first step, establishing proper technique, that is where most people fail.
I have read many people here in TH say the same things that worked for me:
First, play scales from low to high very softly, as softly as you can while still creating notes.
Playing softly maintains a small embouchure aperture which is needed for playing high notes.
High notes do not require more air than lower notes. They actually require less air, although the less air is under higher compression.
Second, if you play up to a certain note and then cannot play the note or two above that,
simply relax and jump up to the notes that are even higher than that.
Why?
Many of us encounter a note or 2 where our range changes and we have trouble locking on to a note or two.
For me personally , High C is that note. I can play Double C easier than I can play High C. When I try High C, I must exercise extreme effort in locking on to that note. Instead of spending the next few years working on that High C before I proceeded with the higher notes, I just went ahead and played on up to Double C, even though I still have trouble with that High C. I do not play with 2 embouchures. I play with the same embouchure in all registers low and high, but High C is where my trumpet voice switches from its normal range to its falsetto range.
Third, use minimum mouthpiece pressure.
People like Tom Turner and others here have pointed out that using less mouthpiece pressure actually improved the embouchure and increased range.
That is my experience, too.
Less mouthpiece pressure allows the embouchure muscles to develop better.
Fourth, find out what your personal embouchure type is and play accordingly.
If you have a downstream embouchure but you are attempting to play with an upstream embouchure technique (mouthpiece placement and trumpet angle), then you will be doomed to failure.
Some players make it look easy?
Appearances can be deceiving.
Extremely strong embouchure muscles are needed for playing in the upper register all night long.
When a trumpet player makes it look easy, it is precisely because his embouchure muscles are so strong.
Here is an analogy:
A 98 pound weakling has difficulty lifting a 5-pound bag of flour at the grocery store,
but after 1 year of weightlifting training he can then pick up an 80-pound bag of cement with no difficulty at all.
His ease in picking up that bag of cement is not an indication of how light that bag actually is, but rather it is an indication of how strong his muscles are.
Playing a soft Double High C for a couple of seconds requires only modest embouchure strength (mostly proper technique rather than embouchure strength),
but maintaining a small embouchure aperture for high notes all night long requires extremely strong embouchure muscles.
Some players make it look easy because they came to the concert prepared with embouchures of iron, the result of years of hard work.
Moshe Mizrachi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drideout
Regular Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 86
Location: Central Illinois
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
High range: above high C? Most lead parts I come across top out at a high G though.
Method: varies on your approach. You've heard a few standard training techniques already, but I just had a lesson with Lynn Nicholson (last week in Vegas) and have to say there is a specific approach that he teaches that I have *never* heard about (and I've looked... believe me). I'm not going to describe it here until I talk about this with Lynn, but for me, it's the key that I've been missing... I'm a solid G/Ab guy... have had that since 10th grade...thats been many years ago - still the same range - until last week's lesson with Lynn. He so needs to put out a dvd of his approach (which was MF's approach)! Let's just say that if I can do this, and I should be able to given my rather normal chop setup, I expect to add a 5th to an octave to my range, and make it easier to do. I realize my info here is vague - hopefully I'll be able to discuss at length. I'd recommend you (and anyone wanting to play like Lynn) consider a lesson with him.
Regards,
Dale |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
butxifxnot
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 2353
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: well |
|
|
| mcgovnor wrote: | I must say, with all due respect, natural attributes have absolutely nothing to do with playing in the altissimo range.
Some can play up there easier then others without practicing up there too much or laboring over it.
Others learn how.
Once you know what to do, it is no harder to play up there than anywhere else. |
Seconded.
It's not a natural ability that makes "naturally high chops", it's a chance encounter with correct technique. Most people aren't lucky enough to have a "Whoops! I accidentally know how to play high!" experience and must learn it.
Unfortunately, most teachers buy into the "talent" lie and don't pursue substantial range.
_________________
"Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
INTJ
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1986
Location: Northern Idaho
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | .................it's a chance encounter with correct technique. |
+10,000. In fact, it is that way with most things in life, though we have to live long enough to experience success at something we thought was impossible for us. For me, those things included: flying USAF jets, winning sanctioned shooting matches, and playing DHC on the trumpet.
Once we understand that concept, then we are left without excuse. For most things where we'd like to excel, the answer is to think and practice, and to think and practive some more. Then repeat..............
_________________
Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gbdeamer
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 2306
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Great thread. I believe anyone can play up to Double C...as long as they find the key. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jtauletta
New Member
Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Dallas Tx
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
If it comes natural to some, as it really does> I believe as in my case it just took more practice and in comparison more physical work to get the same results.. But I got there with practice, Because of great breathing out of the diaphragm and a combination of chops and teeth it is different for everybody, The problem I saw when I played was the guys who just couldn't play high and didn't have the natural ability did not realize the physical work and practice it took to overcome the natural shortcomings. But I am proof it is possible.
_________________
John Auletta |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
