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ConnCoprion
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 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: High Pitch vs. Low Pitch slides? |
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I was just curious about those "old school" cornets.......
What's the deal with them having "low pitch and a high pitch" slides? Can you do with out the one and still play normally?
Yes, as you can tell I'm extremely IGNORANT...about these horns.... 
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Asian Man
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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You should be able to play in our A=440 if the HP slide has enough length. After that you would have to pull out each valve slide to get in tune chromatically. It may play oddly because of the "gap" created.
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ChaseFan
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Joined: 07 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: High Pitch vs. Low Pitch slides? |
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| ConnCoprion wrote: | I was just curious about those "old school" cornets.......
What's the deal with them having "low pitch and a high pitch" slides? Can you do with out the one and still play normally?
Yes, as you can tell I'm extremely IGNORANT...about these horns.... |
In the early 1900's some instruments were manufactured to be Low Pitch with A = 440 Hz.
Some other instruments were manufactured to be High Pitch with A = 457 Hz.
Then there were other instruments which could be either Low Pitch or High Pitch because they came with 2 sets of slides: one set would make the instrument Low Pitch, the other set would make the instrument High Pitch.
Today's modern standard is what used to be called "Low Pitch".
If you own a trumpet or cornet that was manufactured as "Low Pitch" then you can play it with any group today.
Or if it originally had slides for both High Pitch and Low Pitch and you at least still have the Low Pitch slides with it then you are OK.
But if the instrument was inherently High Pitch only (Conn 25B and 27B and 29B, for example), or it originally had both High Pitch and Low Pitch slides, but only the High Pitch slides remain, then you are in trouble because it might be impossible to pull your slides out far enough to tune the instrument for playing in today's bands.
From a Saxophone page that gives info relevant for all instruments:
"WARNING! Note that that Conn produced HIGH PITCH horns until about 1940. Modern instruments, except for some instruments used in concert orchestras in Europe, are LOW PITCH, with A (the tuning note used in orchestras) =440 hz. Some high pitch horns from other manufacturers can be used, if you've got a good ear, because they're tuned to, say, A=442. Conns are pitched around A=457. In other words, you can't play a Conn high pitch horn with other instrumentalists because you'll be seriously out of tune with them! Luckily, Conn did include the stamp "HP" or "High Pitch" above the serial number for these horns that had the odd tuning."
- http://www.saxpics.com/conn/nw_virtuoso.htm
Plus some history from Conn Loyalist:
"High Pitch - Low Pitch
In Germany the bands and orchestras in the mid- to late 1800's played in a pitch where A=440 hz. This is the standard "low pitch" of today (which later became known as "American Standard Pitch" when it finally came to use in the US). However, at the same time, bands and orchestras in France, England and the US were playing in "high pitch" (A=452.5 hz). In fact, in the US, "military high pitch" was even higher at A=457 hz. Around the turn of the century, the use of low pitch became more common in the US, France and England. However, it hadn't replaced high pitch yet. So horns were offered with slides to allow the player to play in either pitch, depending on what was required and what pitch the other instruments were in. In 1917, the American Federation of Musicians formally adopted A=440 as the "official" pitch for the US, and it became known as "American Standard Pitch". Apparently, (strange as it may seem) following World War I one of the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles adopted A=440 as the standard pitch for all signatory nations. Following these events, the production of horns with accessory slides for high pitch declined, and finally stopped. (Source: Tom Meacham)"
- http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnDictionary.html
BTW - my consultation fee for the above info is one 1945 Martin Committee  |
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ConnCoprion
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Chasefan!
Well I might grab one of those old cornets........hopefully it has the low pitch...slide.....
I wonder...if it didn't.....could someone fabricate one for the "low pitch?"
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ChaseFan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| ConnCoprion wrote: | Thanks Chasefan!
Well I might grab one of those old cornets........hopefully it has the low pitch...slide.....
I wonder...if it didn't.....could someone fabricate one for the "low pitch?" |
Remember a recent post in which I speculated and Conn Loyalist confirmed that a Conn Director slide would work on a Conn 22B because they are the same bore size and same radius?
Depending on which trumpet or cornet you buy, there is a chance that you could borrow a cheap slide from another common model and use it on the rarer model.
That is even possible on other brands, as the Leblanc / Martin employee told us that the rare Holton C103 cornet can use the slides from a more common Holton ST302 MF Horn.
Most manufacturers like to save money by designing various models that can share parts such as slides.
If you buy a high pitch .438 bore Conn pea-shooter from the 1930's era, I speculate that the slides from any low-pitch .438 bore Conn pea-shooter of that era should fit it.
But that would tend to involve buying a second trumpet for parts, so it is better to just check (for trumpets)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnLooksTrumpet.html
or check (for cornets)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnLooksCornet.html
to make sure that the model you are buying is not inherently high-pitch in the first place:
Avoid High Pitch models 19B, 25B, 27B, 29B
If the trumpet is both Low Pitch *and* High Pitch make sure that the full set of all 3 Low Pitch slides come with it, such as models 9B, 41B.
Although I am no expert on the matter, don't confuse instruments that have a set of slides for switching between Low Pitch and High Pitch with the completely different 1920's instruments which have an alternate tuning slide which contains a switch for swithing between Bb and A, such as the 1920's model 18B seen at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn18B1925image.html
The alternate tuning slide with the swithch for changing keys is seen at the bottom of the photo.
I'm not sure but I think I have even seen some Conn 22B's from the 1920's with that alternate tuning slide, but I don't know if that was original or just stuck on by owners.
BTW, when I seen old trumpets or cornets from the early 1900's that are brands I don't know, I avoid buying them lest I accidently buy a High Pitch instrument that is un-usable with modern bands.
Last edited by ChaseFan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wardsd
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
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To answer your question more directly, yes the low pitch slide can be made if you don't have it. I have it done all the time. It is reasonably expensive though - a couple hundred dollars.
Steve |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
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Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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I had an old (ca. 1908) J.W. Pepper cornet with two mouthpiece bits - one for high pitch and one for low pitch. Obviously, with no extra slides, the horn was originally designed as a HP cornet. When using the LP bit, all the valve slides had to be pulled out a little. It played just OK in high pitch, and terrible in LP, no matter how the slides were manipulated. Sort of like trying to use Bb slides on a C tumpet - the intonation is squirrely at best. I thought the leaky valves were the problem, so I had a valve job done on it. That didn't fix the intonation, so I sold it.......
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wardsd
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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I own several Boston cornets. These typically did come with the high pitch and low pitch slides, and they play well with both. This of course assumes the valves are reasonably tight. Often, the Boston cornets only come with one now (the other being lost) and most often it seems like the low pitch slide is lost.
I have one Boston full kit that actually came with three slides - short, long and longer. Not sure what the additional slide is for. It isn't long enough for A, and there is an A crook anyway.
Dale, most probably the problem was it was a pepper!
Steve |
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StevenPSparks
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Joined: 08 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| wardsd wrote: | I own several Boston cornets.
Steve |
You're so modest.....lol
While I have not owned (nearly) the number of vintage horns as my good friend here, it has been my experience that "adjustable" horns typically play the best in the highest pitch for which they were designed; All else involves compromise. As mentioned above, there are HP/LP, A/Bb (+/- HP/LP), A/Bb/C, and more; The greater the number, the greater the compromises for each key to play acceptably. I confess, however, that in spite of my love for vintage cornets, my standards in judging them are based mostly upon modern technology. In other words, I'm picky for intonation. Also, just as it is today, there were many fine horns manufactured "back in the day", but there were (in my experience) a higher number of "not so great" horns made alongside them.
Not raining on the vintage cornet parade at all (for fear of disembowelment by the CC), just adding my perspective.
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
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Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| StevenPSparks wrote: | ....I confess, however, that in spite of my love for vintage cornets, my standards in judging them are based mostly upon modern technology. In other words, I'm picky for intonation. Also, just as it is today, there were many fine horns manufactured "back in the day", but there were (in my experience) a higher number of "not so great" horns made alongside them.
Not raining on the vintage cornet parade at all.... |
I judge vintage horns by how they play, too. I've gotten rid of many cool old horns just because they were bad players. Go ahead and rain on the parade - regardless of what many people post on sites such as this one, most really old cornets aren't very good players outside the practice room.
Wardsd, the problem with the Pepper was that it was one of those French(?) stencil cornets that were sold to about a million different instrument companies. Seems like many of the late 1800-early 1900 cornets you see are these - they look just alike.
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tom turner
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a mid-1910s era, Boston TRUMPET bell closeup, on a Boston that I own . . . with the letters LP on the bell. I suspect they saved money on this one by not including the shorter set of HP slides, and were thus able to call this a LP horn.
Interesting engraving type, and somewhat unlike the bell details on my Boston 3-Star cornets that looks so familiar to Boston fans:
Tom
NOTE: Click, and/or double click to enlarge the photo for detail |
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