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GenoValet
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 Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Conn 38B, mythology? |
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I’ve read here at TH several times by different posters that a Connstellation 38B trumpet has a conical bore, with the conclusion that it is de facto a cornet just like the 28A, but with a trumpet mouthpiece leadpipe. I recently acquired a digital caliper & made a series of measurements on my 1961 Coprion. Here are the measurements (averages of several readings) on each pipe, inner diameters:
Tuning slide, in: 0.4365 inch
Tuning slide, out: 0.4365
1st valve slide, top: 0.4380
1st valve slide, bot: 0.4375
2nd valve slide, top: 0.4350
2nd valve slide, bot: 0.4350
3rd valve slide, top (pipe): 0.4370
3rd valve slide, bot (slide): 0.4365.
It seems to me that this is essentially cylindrical, not conical. The differences are only at the 1,000th’s and 10,000th’s which would be accounted for by manufacturing tolerance variations. I would expect in a conical instrument that the differences would be at least several 100th’s (e.g., like a Shew step bore going from 0.468 to 0.445). Am I misunderstanding the concept, or is this "myth" busted? 
Last edited by GenoValet on Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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B_Starry
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I believe the leadpipe (venturi?) is conical, rather than cylindrical.
Can you measure that?
The nominal difference between cornet and trumpet has to do with the relative length of tubing that is conical vs cylindrical, in my understanding. Even the short "shepherd's crook" cornets have some cylindrical tubing, right?
(I also believe the proper comparison should be 38B vs 28A, rather than 38A). jmo
- Brian
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Biber
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Proportional measurements for the Conn 38B given to me by Robb Stewart indicate that it is 67% conical (35.625conical/17.75cylindrical 53.625 total).
To fuel the fire a bit, Stewart also notes that "a Bach cornet has 3% more conical tubing than a Bach trumpet and that a Schilke cornet has 5% less conical tubing than a Schilke trumpet". The measuremets don't lie.
Aside from wrap and mpiece receiver, it would seem that modern trumpets ARE cornets. A very polemical subject.
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Bob Stevenson
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Of course it matters WHICH cornet your comparing to.....
My Sovereign cornet has a 14 inch leadpipe taper,....the longest I have found on a trumpet is 7 inches.... |
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Biber
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Those measurements were for Bach 37 cornet and trumpet and Schilke A1 cornet and B5 trumpet by the way.
B |
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GenoValet
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| B_Starry wrote: | I believe the leadpipe (venturi?) is conical, rather than cylindrical.
Can you measure that?
The nominal difference between cornet and trumpet has to do with the relative length of tubing that is conical vs cylindrical, in my understanding. Even the short "shepherd's crook" cornets have some cylindrical tubing, right?
(I also believe the proper comparison should be 38B vs 28A, rather than 38A). jmo
- Brian |
Mouthpiece receiver: 0.4325inch (going to tuning slide 0.4365 as above; the 38B does not have a reverse). But of course there is the taper for the mpc shank, so again, it is apparently cylindrical, not conical to any significant degree. |
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Andy Cooper
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Other than the "Couturier Model New Proportion Cornet" I don't know of any cornet that actually tried to have the slides tubes and valves have a progressive increase in inside diameter. Some custom makers will use some different I.D. tubing in some valve slides to improve response but not to make the horn more conical. If the bells and the tuning slide are the same on both models then the "conical" difference - if any-would be in the leadpipe with a difference in the starting I.D. of the leadpipe tube. Some Conn cornets had really long leadpipes that went to the valves without any cylindrical tuning slide. Others had a "conical" tuning slide crook with cylindrical tuning slide tubes. |
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cleanhead77@embarqmail
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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I attended a talk several years ago given by Robb Stewart, regarding conical and tubular/cylindrical trumpets and cornets. The most interesting memory I have of it was that the most conical trumpet he measured, which was more conical than many of the cornets, was the Schilke B5 !!
I also once played a Conn 38A which had the mouthpiece receiver changed to take a trumpet shank. It didn't play at all like a 38B, it played terribly.
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding trumpet vs. cornet, I just took the following measurements of my Bach Strad 43 trumpet (T) and my Bach Strad 184 cornet (C).
Tapered portion of leadpipe from connection of mouthpiece receiver to connection of tuning slide receiver > T=7-1/2", C=13"
Tapered portion of bell > T=18-1/2", C=18"
In addition, the cornet tuning slide legs are two different O.D.'s, so the crook of the slide could possibly be conical. If not, the increase of tubing size still continues through this portion of the cornet. Even ignoring this, the cornet has 31" of conical tubing vs. 26" for the trumpet - a 5" difference. Assuming a nominal 53" total length without mouthpiece, that's around a 10% difference between this cornet and trumpet.
I also measured my Conn 6B Victor trumpet, which shares the same dimensions as the 38B Connstellation. The tapered portion of the leadpipe is 9-3/8", and the tapered portion of the bell is 20", giving a total of 29-3/8" conical tubing, which is closer to my Bach shepherds crook cornet than it is to my Bach trumpet.
Disclaimer - these measurements were taken with a cloth measuring tape - I'm sure they aren't exact, but are close enough for comparison purposes.
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GenoValet
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Biber wrote: | Proportional measurements for the Conn 38B given to me by Robb Stewart indicate that it is 67% conical (35.625conical/17.75cylindrical 53.625 total).
Do you have actual numbers ? or just these proportions? Curious as to how they'd match up to what I took.
To fuel the fire a bit, Stewart also notes that "a Bach cornet has 3% more conical tubing than a Bach trumpet and that a Schilke cornet has 5% less conical tubing than a Schilke trumpet". The measuremets don't lie.
Aside from wrap and mpiece receiver, it would seem that modern trumpets ARE cornets. A very polemical subject.
or, could it be that "modern cornets ARE [i]pocket trumpets"?[/i]
B |
Maybe I can get around to taking the same measurements on the slides of my circa 1905 Shepherds Crook cornet & post those too. |
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GenoValet
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| B_Starry wrote: | | ...(I also believe the proper comparison should be 38B vs 28A, rather than 38A). jmo - Brian |
Yes, good catch, I corrected the original post. From my perspective tho', IF other than the mouthpiece receiver being for a cornet piece on the 28A, a 28A is otherwise identical to a 38B (I do not have access to one to make the same measurements & a short search around ConnLoyalist.com didn't make that point), then a 28A is not a cornet. It is a trumpet with a cornet mouthpiece receiver. IF the 28A has a conical leadpipe also, which my 38B apparently does not, then the 28A is truly more cornet by adding that "conical-icity" of that leadpipe to the obviously conical bell section. Either way, there is still some aspect of myth regarding the 28A vs 38B, no? |
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Hey Geno, are you sure about that cylindrical leadpipe business? I don't have my 6B handy right now, but doesn't the inside of the leadpipe start out about the same diameter as the end of the mouthpiece shank (approx. .382) and increase to around .438 at the tuning slide receiver? The pipe has an obvious exterior taper, and I can't imagine it having a cylindrical bore on the inside. Even my old 22B has a conical leadpipe, and it looks deceptively cylindrical on the outside.
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GenoValet
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | Hey Geno, are you sure about that cylindrical leadpipe business? I don't have my 6B handy right now, but doesn't the inside of the leadpipe start out about the same diameter as the end of the mouthpiece shank (approx. .382) and increase to around .438 at the tuning slide receiver? The pipe has an obvious exterior taper, and I can't imagine it having a cylindrical bore on the inside. Even my old 22B has a conical leadpipe, and it looks deceptively cylindrical on the outside. |
Hiya Dale: at your behest I rechecked my measurements and those are correct. Now these digital calipers have no reach into the pipe, so I don't know what is going on between the inner end of the mpc rcvr and the external step where the tuning slide fits it (the inside diameter of the leadpipe at the bell end being irrelevant because it is not a reverse type). Moving right along, here are the measurements for the very early 20th Century JW Pepper Surprise, undeniably a cornet
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gvfluegels/sets/72157603407228047/ :
Leadpipe receiver end: 0.379
1st tuning slide in: .459
out: .459
2nd tuning slide in: .459
out: .459
1st valve slide top: .459
bottom: .468
2nd valve slide top: .464
bottom: .464
3rd valve slide top: .459
bottom: .464
Clearly, this has a true conical design, with expected variations at the 100ths, unlike the 38B. (& L bore to boot! no wonder it got a "great tone" comment the one time I used it since restoration!) |
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Biber
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| cleanhead77@embarqmail wrote: | | I attended a talk several years ago given by Robb Stewart, regarding conical and tubular/cylindrical trumpets and cornets. The most interesting memory I have of it was that the most conical trumpet he measured, which was more conical than many of the cornets, was the Schilke B5 !! ... |
That's the source of the specs I gave earlier. Robb Stewart was very gracious to share with me the text and data of that presentation. His measurements are quite telling.
B |
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GenoValet
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Biber wrote: | | cleanhead77@embarqmail wrote: | | I attended a talk several years ago given by Robb Stewart, regarding conical and tubular/cylindrical trumpets and cornets. The most interesting memory I have of it was that the most conical trumpet he measured, which was more conical than many of the cornets, was the Schilke B5 !! ... |
That's the source of the specs I gave earlier. Robb Stewart was very gracious to share with me the text and data of that presentation. His measurements are quite telling.
B |
Biber - but also as you said earlier, "The measurements don't lie." According to my calipers, the only real conical part of my 38B is the bell section. Therefore, it's a true trumpet. Unless somebody can make measurements on a 28A to discover other differences, it would appear so far that the myth is backwards: The "38B is not a cornet with a trumpet mpc rcver," but the "28A long cornet" is a trumpet with a cornet mpc rcvr. |
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Biber
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I have no reason to question Stewart's measurements. I trust that as a well known and respected instrument maker and restorer his measurements are accurate. So when he says the Conn 38B is 67% conical I believe him.
How are you measuring your leadpipe?
Conn was not the only one who produced trumpet models in the 20's & 30s whose lead pipes appeared externally cylindrical but were in fact conical inside, Beuscher, York, among others did as well.
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GenoValet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Biber wrote: | ...How are you measuring your leadpipe?
b |
See posts above. |
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trickg
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Now wait just a danged minute! Do we really want to muddy up the issue with facts?! 
Sorry - I don't have anything specific to add to this thread, but I am interested in reading what everone else posts, so my post is really only to get a subscription to the thread. 
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Biber
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | Now wait just a danged minute! Do we really want to muddy up the issue with facts?! |
Aint that the truth! Want to make trumpet player mad? tell him his trumpet is actually a cornet. (Not to mention that the Bb trumpet is actually an alto instrument) Denial is everywhere. I know, I was in denial until recently.
Not to take this thread in another direction, but this raises the issue of what actually defines a cornet and what actually defines a trumpet. Can't be wrap - Conn, Harry B Jay and others offered basically a single model instruments with different receivers. Note also Monette's "Frumpet" - no extra turns there yet a dark tone. Conical/cylindrical proportion: not that, see my earlier post with statistics for Bach and Schilke horns.
When all is said and done its probably mouthpiece-together with all those other factors if we're being honest. Though even that is to an extent questionable. Some cornets are still relatively darker sounding with C cup mpieces. But we should perhaps view it from a different angle. What originally differentiated a trumpet from a cornet? From all indications (thank you HLC et all) it was tone color and function. A predominantly (50%+) cylindrical piston valved trumpet hasn't been made in America since around the beginning of the 20c, if not even longer ago (most European imports from the 1880s on were significantly/mostly conical - that's where it all started). Those instruments (bad intonation because of their cylindrical nature and all) had exceedingly bright timbres and played secondary roles to the cornet in almost every regard. Both the cornet and the trumpet drew on the other's design aspects in the first quarter of the 20c = long model cornets / trumpets with more refined conical bores. Thus causing their formerly distinct timbres to effectively converge into a single amorphous trumpet-like tone by the 30s or 40s at the latest. I'm not saying that was necessarily a bad thing, but we need to acknowledge that that did indeed happen. Fortunately, thanks in large part to the British Brass band movement in America, we have seen a return to short model shepherd's crook instruments and "funnel' shaped cornet mouthpieces, and with these changes cornets are going back to their darker heritage. German Rotary valved trumpets are probably the closest we come to true (cylindrical) trumpets, though even they have adopted tapered leadpipes to tame their intonation. Quite a different animal isn't it, seems like American orchestras use them reluctantly at best. Now isn't that telling
Just some thoughts.
By the way, for the Constellation 28A, Stewart gives the following specs: 37 conical / 16.625 cylindrical total: 53.625 = 69% conical
B
Last edited by Biber on Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:21 am; edited 2 times in total |
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GenoValet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | Now wait just a danged minute! Do we really want to muddy up the issue with facts?! Sorry - I don't have anything specific to add to this thread, but I am interested in reading what everone else posts, so my post is really only to get a subscription to the thread. |
DOH! What was I thinking?!?! Particularly since it's sooooo obvious from the nightly news that spin & myth are what matters most since we've 'crossed the bridge to the 21st Century.' The horror, the horror... |
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