New York Bach vs Modern Bach which plays better, howrthydif

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455

What are the different characteristcs between NY and modern Bach?

dr_trumpet

Scorpion · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:

the new york bachs have a free toy inside. The modern one only come with a bazooka joe comic rolled up in the 3rd valve slide.
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WildCat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 1820

Joebaca · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject:

I think that Vintage horns have a warmer feel than modern horns. I have owned a modern 43 bach and Mt Vernons.. The Mt Vernons had that warmness but took a little more adjust the intonation. I now play on a 1945 Martin Committee and love it.. It took a few weeks to adjust. But it is the best horn i have ever owned...The intonation is pretty dam good.. Better than any Mt Vernon i have played.
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WildCat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 1820

puukka · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:59 am Post subject:

According this article the New York and Mt. Vernon Bachs had at least a lightweight bell.

http://www.erikveldkamp.nl/Resources/tests/VincentBach197.pdf

So as example the Kanstul 1500B should be nearer than a today´s Strad.
If someone states, that the New York or Mount Vernon plays better, then I could think about the faster response by the lighweight bell....oh, do I now bust a myth?

Herbert
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Vin DiBona · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:42 am Post subject:

Frankly, I don't see any rational way to compare the two.
They are entirely different in style, materials, and craftmanship. Braces
were frequently moved around and of different shapes and sizes. In some
instances, it is impossible to tell what model it actually is without having
the actual shop card.
I would love to get my hands on a good one, but not at the prices that
are asked for them.

Rich Tomasek

Joebaca · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:32 am Post subject:

You make a excellent point. At this point in my life i feel the Martin Committee is the best i have ever played.. The horn looks old but it feels and plays great.. Not a lead players choice horn but for the average weekend warrior section player, it is incredible
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Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:03 am Post subject:

Joebaca · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject:

I just picked up a Super olds 145##.. This horn plays so open.
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puukka · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject:

cleanhead77@embarqmail · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject:

The NY Strads and the early Mt Vernon Strads (and Mercedes) are similar in design, with a narrower wrap. Sometime during the Mt Vernon era the design changed to a wider wrap which was continued into the Elkhart production and has continued to this day. Therefore the earlier narrow wrap Bachs are a really different horn. The really early Bach Strads from the middle 1920's are indeed different from any of the above.
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razeontherock · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject:

Nobody's mentioned the early NY Bachs were handmade custom jobs for a specific player? (Inconsistency at it's best) Quite a bit different from a send-it-down-the-line production model.
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_Daff · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431

I believe Bach made as many as 72 bells, only a handfull of which are still available in current production. Additionally, the configurations, bracing, bell material, varied widely through the years. Bach was quite prolific with experimentation.

My NY is a 1937 #10 bell, and feels lighter in the hand than my late Mt. Vernon and early Elkhart which were assembled five years apart. The shop card lists the NY bell as 51 gauge, but that sounds awfully thin, unless gauge standards have changed since then. Regardless, the sound it makes is quite dense and pure and it doesn't feel like it's going to break up when pushed to the limit as I have experienced with light weight bells of other mfrs..

I've owned my share of vintage Strads in thinning things down to the current trio. All I can say is that they are all alike, but different. I think it's those 'alike' qualities that keep people on the hunt for that sweet one.

The medium bore Strads are great horns to lean into if you're a resistance player and you may find them to beg for a more open, or more free-blowing mp. I find the NY and early Mt. Vernon short wraps to be more responsive and they can be a bit more squirrely in the tuning department if you're not sending them the right message. They do what you tell them too, so choose your words carefully. I believe this is related to the wrap.

Hope this helps some.

sunburstbasser · Heavyweight Member Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 1194

I've also read that Bach came up with 72 bell. Maybe on the Bach Loyalist site? I have also read that pre-Elkharts had thinner bells. Does anyone know when they switched to a heavier weight bell?

IIRC, standard production currently:

37
43
72
25
65
38 (cornet, is it still around?)
7 (New York model)

The 25 and 65 don't seem to be made in the numbers the others are. And I have no clue where 229, 239 etc. come from. The earliest Bachs were attempts to make a Besson, then later a better Besson.

It'd be a lot of fun to try out all 72 different bells. See how a 12 plays, for instance! I bet Bach still has the bell mandrills somewhere, though I don't suppose getting a non-standard bell would be feasible nowadays.
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tptmed · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject:

I have a very old Bach (low 200's serial number) and the shop card states it is a # 2 bell and a #2 leadpipe. The bell (and braces) are definitely more Pre-war Besson-like. My personal feeling is the earlier horns have a certain ring to the sound BUT it's only as good as the player and the condition of the horn.

razeontherock · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject:

Interesting points here! The pre war Bessons were all bronze. Bach tried to copy them, but did he ever make anything all bronze?
I've got a horn w/ both bell and leadpipe made from the same mandrel as the pre-war Besson! (No bronze though ...)
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puukka · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject:

cleanhead77@embarqmail · Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:14 am Post subject:

No, today's Bach is a Mt Vernon invention. When Bach sold to Selmer, the agreement was they would not monkey around with his Stradivarius design. Today's Bach is still basically the late Mt Vernon design by Vincent Bach himself. Since Bach is now a subsidiary of Conn/Steinway, and Bach has passed on, I don't know if that agreement still holds.
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