4 Flugels - advice!

[maynard-46]

I need some insight in to 4 different flugelhorns...a (1) Kanstul Chicago 1025; a (2) Kanstul Custom Class 925; a (3) Yamaha Bobby Shew 6310Z; and a (4) Lawler TLFLG. I own a Kanstul 1525 and am looking for something a little different...fluffier, maybe a little brighter, a little more nimble, preferably a little more compact in sound and size, and, again, preferably one with a YELLOW BRASS bell.

I BRIEFLY owned a Shew about 8 years ago but, due to horrendous valve problems (actually freezing up in the casings), I got rid of it. I also owned, breifly, a Chicago 1025 about 9 years ago and felt it was a little too tight of a blow plus the intonation/upper register (which I do use on flugel!) wasn't the best. Maybe these issues on these horns has been corrected in the last 8-9 years???

ANY impressions on these horns would be greatly appreciated. If you've played them, A/B'd them, owned them, etc. etc. etc. Give me your take on their respective:

(1) SOUND...(bright, dark, tubby, centered, etc.)
(2) EASE OF BLOW...
(3) INTONATION
(4) LOWER/UPPER REGISTER
(5) IF YOU KNOW THE TAPER OF THE RECEIVER...(I'm ONLYlooking for a Bach or Standard mouthpiece taper...NO Cousenon!)

ANYTHING else that you can think of I'd appreceiate !!! I know there are NUMEROUS good flugels on the market but I'd like to stick with your opinions regarding these particular 4 horns PLEASE!!!

Thanks,
Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

[KSF2990]

i don't have a ton of experience with these, but i'd be willing to bet that your problem with the bobby shew was either a fluke, or maybe the oil you were using. they genreally aren't a problem on those orns as far as i know. some horns have terrible valves, but then if you use a lighter/heavier oil they work great. if you just play the horn before you buy it you'll hopefully avoid that trouble.

[mcahynuacrkd]

Butch I will evaluate the Lawler flugelhorn for you. The Lawler flugelhorn that I played was silver with a gold brass bell.
http://www.lawlertrumpets.com/fluegel.html
(1) SOUND...(bright, dark, tubby, centered, etc.)
Neither too bright nor dark, imho right in the middle.
Beautiful timbre of sound. Imo the Lawler's timbre of sound is only surpassed by the Calicchio.

(2) EASE OF BLOW...
Imo the best ease of blow of any flugelhorn in the world, bar none. The most comfortable playing flugelhorn on the market. Just lovely to play, you will never want to put the Lawler flugelhorn down. I sure didn't.
(3) INTONATION
Excellent.
(4) LOWER/UPPER REGISTER
The Lawler flugelhorn is the master of both registers, this is truly the Lawler's greatest strength.
(5) IF YOU KNOW THE TAPER OF THE RECEIVER...(I'm ONLYlooking for a Bach or Standard mouthpiece taper...NO Cousenon!)
Custom built to the taper that you want.
_________________
Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord

[Retlaw]

You have had negative experiences with two of the horns ..they may have changed but it is hard to forget the experience.. you own the 1525...that leaves two..the Kanstul will no doubt be similar to what you already have .... so it's Lawler or nothing as a horn that will give you something different......

Why the imposed limit?

Walter

[teacherchops]

Hi,
I have owned the Shew flugel for about 1 year. I had a hell of a time with the valves freezing....tried every oil out there...finally got fed up and sent the horn back to Yamaha about two weeks ago...hopefully they can repair it...also the thread on the valve caps are extremely fine and hard to screw on..I have actually missed entries while trying to get the caps screwed back...these things aside, the horn plays beautifully...a very smooth velvety sound and easy blow...too bad about the valves though.

[goldenhornplayer]

I've also had the Shew flugel for almost a year. Call me lucky but valves have been great. I have used both Ultrapure and T2 oil and both worked fine. The sound is compact which is exactly what I was looking for. I really couldn't be happier with it. --Ken B.

[_Daff]

I've heard the stories of Yamaha valve problems, yet can't speak highly enough about the valves on my relatively new Shew flug. They are simply phenomenal valves with excellent compression. A couple drops of Hetman's 1 oil makes them incredibly slick, and the compression is right on.

As far as the cap threads, yes, I agree, too fine, but a dab of slide grease helps 'float' them into place.

I have played (not owned) the Kanstul 1525 and 925 and wasn't terribly impressed with the valves, so I moved on, so who knows? One man's castle....... The 1525 was more tromboney of the two. The Shew pays with more brilliant overtones when you want it to.

Recently had my Shew listed in the Marketplace thinking I'd continue on with the safari for kicks, but decided to keep it. The horn plays in tune, nice build quality, all the parts move perfectly, easy as heck to play, and it responds very nicely to mp changes. I find it a decent all-around horn.

So there ya go.

[maynard-46]

mcahynuacrkd ...teacherchops and Daff

Thank you very much for your replies. They were EXACTLY what I was looking for!

KSF2990

Please read teacherchops post! It wasn't only me and the answer wasn't valve oil choice. I tried everything I could get my hands on and they STILL froze up after ONE day of not playing it. Playing the horn before buying is NOTgoing to make you aware of these type of things that will pop up in the first month or two of owning an instrument.

Retlaw

Not quite sure what you meant in your post. (1) Just because I own a Kanstul 1525 shouldn't rule out the 1025 model as they're as different playing/sounding as night and day! (2) Why the limitation on choices? Simple...because these 4 are the ones I'm interested in! Besides...if I didn't specify EXACTLY what models and brands of horns I was interested in we would probably be talking about flutes and clarinets by page two which is the way alot of these threads go!! (3) As for having negative experiences with two of the horns 8-9 years ago...that was why I asked the question "have these issues been corected" which, if anyone has recent experience with these two horns I was hoping that they would relay their "new" experiences 8-9 years later!

I wish to also thank the TH posters that have PM'd me with VERYhelpful advice!

Anyone else that can add their experiences with these 4 hornsI greatfully welcome your replies!

Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

[Jumel]

Hi Butch,
I've played these horns, so will share my personal impressions. Keep in mind, we're splitting hairs here, but I'm ultra picky on my Flugel and it sounds like you know what you're after too.
(1) Kanstul Chicago 1025
A superb compact horn, just feels great in the hands, agree the blow is a bit tighter then my Couesnon and your 1525 for sure. The sound will be what you're after. It didn't feel quite as "light" or flexible to me as the new Shew, my restored Couesnon or 1525 for comparision. Bach taper.
(2) Kanstul Custom Class 925
A very velvet, dark core... more open in feel then the 1025 but not as open as the 1525. I think all the Kanstul's are of exceptional quality, but the 925 sound (velvet dark) doesn't have the same core as the 1525 (copper bell dark) . Sound is somewhat broad, but very rich and nice. French taper.
(For the record, I think the 1525 is the best playing standard production Flugel on the market (I've played), but you have to want a very dark sound to be happy with it - it wasn't for me, but I enjoyed playing it)
(3) Yamaha Bobby Shew 6310Z
Definitely lighter, brighter then the 1525. The feel and playability of tihis Flugel was one of my favorites. It didn't have the same core overtones as my Couesnon, so I invested in a complete overhaul on my Flugel. It is an excellent value and I suspect the one closest to what you outlined. Standard taper.
(4) Lawler
One of the guys I play in a trumpet section with has this horn and we compared the sound/blow/feel of our Flugels recently. It is a .460 bore and does take noticeably more air... it is also pretty open up top. My horn (and the Shew) were more agile and easier to control as you play due to less air. This horn projects extremely well if you play in loud groups where your copper bell Flugel gets overpowered. As others said, its core tone is in the middle, but I really noticed a difference in the sound (from the players ear) based on the mouthpiece -- I liked it much better with a moderate-to-deep FL cup vs. a med cup mouthpiece. Standard taper.
Other
More cost, but the Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugel should be on your list too based on what I've read. I have not played it, but based on other Flip Oakes purchases I'm certain you'll never find better customer service anywhere. Its worth at least doing some research on.

I hope the perspective helps -- all the flugels you mentioned are great, so it comes down to taste.
Regards,
Mel
_________________
Bach C 239
Bach Bb 180-38, Melk MTV-525 leadpipe
Couesnon Flugelhorn
Boston 3 Star Cornet (1904)
Getzen 580 Cornet (1973)

[KSF2990]

[rgeba]

Butch,
I own a Kanstul CC925. However, unless you're open to changing the leadpipe, I'll spare you the details. It has a French taper.

I've played a Shew several times. Definitely a lighter tone than the 1525 and 925, more like a French horn than a trombone. I also found it to have a quicker response with an easier upper register. The valves were smooth and fast, (although the models I played were all new horns, and I only played them for 15-20 mins at a shot).

Bob

[maynard-46]

Jumel

Thank you for taking the time to write such a helpful post! My gut feeling was with the Shew and the Chicago and after reading what you said I guess I was in the ballpark! Thanks again.

Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

[Retlaw]

[Yammie]

Butch -

I believe the Chicago 1025 comes standard with French taper, but you can order it differently.

One other issue - Bach flugelhorn taper and standard (Yamaha) taper are the same Morse taper, but the diameter at the tip is different. The Bach flugel mouthpiece is slightly narrower at the tip, like they continued the mouthpiece just a smidge past where the standard ends. This difference is enough to impact an evaluation of Bach or Vintage One horns using a standard length mouthpiece, or if you use Bach/V1 sized mouthpieces on other standard taper flugels.

Regarding ease of blow, I personally prefer the more restrained feel of a small bore horn like my Couesnon or the Chicago vs. a .460 bore like an old Benge flugel. I think it's a big factor in getting a characteristically warm flugel sound, expecially at lower dynamic levels or in the higher register (such as a lead line in a big band section part).

Regarding intonation, I have evaluated Yamaha 6310 flugels and they have an excellent scale, the best I've experienced. I know several pros who have switched from their Couesnon to a 6310Z largely based on the improved intonation. Me, I had my Couesnon valves rebuilt and aligned, which helped a lot, but I'm still willing to wrestle a wee bit with it to get that characteristic classic Couesnon sound.
_________________
6340S, Connstellation 36B, 38B, 38A, and 28A, Couesnon flugel, Blackburn C, Kanstul/Besson 920 picc, and a HUGE pile of Messina Covers gig bags

[maynard-46]

Yammie...thanks for enlightening me on things I didn't know!!!

Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

[Tom LeCompte]

Butch,

There's a message here somewhere when I went on my flugel hunt, comparing the Kanstul Chicago and the Shew. I ended up with a Conn V1, so if you don't like that horn, you might want to consider that when reading my comments.

Tom

[Mike Lockman]

Does anyone know if there are plans for an updated Shew flugel Maybe a 8310, like the updated trumpet.
_________________
All Bach Strad
AFM 60-471
Phi Mu Alpha

[Yammie]

[Tony Scodwell]

Of course I'm biased, but the Scodwell USA Flugelhorn, available at Chuck Levin's Washington Music Center is exactly what the lovers of older, great French Flugels are looking for, except mine is really in tune. The response is very secure, sound is quite dark [but very clear] and a bonus is the way it plays above the staff. It does not need a third slide trigger, but I put one on after many conversations with some wonderful players who advised me that most players want it. Mine doesn't have a trigger by the way. Primary tuning is in the lower branch with tuning also available with the mouthpipe. It's a good way to accomodate different mouthpieces. Bach and French taper pipes are available.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns
"Live In The Studio" by the Tony Scodwell Big Band now at CD Baby

[razeontherock]