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rein
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Location: Belgium
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 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: bore size flugelhorn |
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OK, maybe a stupid question, but until now I haven't received a satisfying answer from anyone I've asked:
the bore size of a flugelhorn ... in what way does it effect the sound. Not in the 'feel' of playing the instrument, but really in sound-quality. So, in what physical way does it affect the sound production?
the more details the better :P !!!
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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The bell has a much larger influence, to the point that it essentially swamps the leadpipe bore.
To first order, the acoustic resonance of a circular pipe is independent of its diameter, though at the interface (bell) it does come into play, and of course most of the pipes in a flugelhorn (trumpet, etc.) are not simple linear circular cross-sections but rather some sort of flare... Again, this is most pronounced in the bell section.
That said, to me, most all the larger-bored flugelhorns I have played sound a little more "trumpety" than the smaller bores. However, other players do not seem to have that issue, so it's probably just me. Maybe the larger bore makes it too easy for me to overblow them...
FWIWFM - Don
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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Flugelhorn bore size |
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I feel quite stongly about this subject and wish to offer my opinion [which I respect]. I believe there is a reason why most players have sought out older French flugels, i.e. the constant search for good playing old Couesnons and Bessons [Art Farmer on his Besson never sounded better] so when I wanted to build a better flugel, my goal was to make a flugel that sounded like those without the response and pitch problems some of those had. Having been through a few .460 bore flugels in playing conditions, it always felt like I was picking up a cold horn needing to play in tune with a cold flute. Bore size was a factor for sure, and the good playing French flugels were .415. For this reason I've decided that maybe, someone knew what they were doing and decided to use .415 on my flugels. Freddie Hubbard sounded pretty darn good on his Getzen [.460 bore] but I believe he may be an exception on this topic. As for the larger bells on some flugels, my feeling is 6" is the proper size. I tried bigger diameter bells and didn't feel the balance was right. The bell mandrel I use is a copy of Clark Terry's old Selmer with a slightly tighter radius. Obviously I built a few prototypes before settling in on the configuration that I make in limited numbers today. All this is certainly my opinion, but an argument in my favor is the fact that Bobby Shew lobbied Yamaha for quite some time before they agreed to build his model flugelhorn in .415 bore similar to the Couesnon that he had played for years.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns
"Live In The Studio" by the Tony Scodwell Big Band now at CD Baby
Coming soon from Hal Leonard, the Tony Scodwell Big Band Play Along |
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Cheesehead
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| One more question: why don't they make quality flugels in the key of C? |
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Tony Scodwell
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: C Flugels |
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Anyone who has a handle by the name of "Cheesehead" should know the answer to that question...Polkas for German bands were never written for "C" flugels. I should know as a former member of Uncle Julias' German Band and a card carrying cheesehead.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns
"Live In The Studio" by the Tony Scodwell Big Band
Coming soon from Hal Leonard, the Tony Scodwell Big Band Play Along |
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ZeroMan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: Me Too |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | That said, to me, most all the larger-bored flugelhorns I have played sound a little more "trumpety" than the smaller bores. However, other players do not seem to have that issue, so it's probably just me. Maybe the larger bore makes it too easy for me to overblow them...
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I agree..... I think a flügelhorn with a .460 bore is easier to play like a trumpet. One of the advertised advantages of a large bore flügelhorn is the supposed ease with which a player can switch between trumpet & flügelhorn. |
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ZeroMan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: Flügelhorn is a band instrument. |
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| Cheesehead wrote: | | One more question: why don't they make quality flugels in the key of C? |
Demand. The flügelhorn had its origins as a strictly band or military band instrument. Most players still use it primarily in a band setting, albeit a jazz band setting if in the Americas. To my knowledge, most flügelhorn parts in a classical setting are written for a Bb flügelhorn. |
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Cheesehead
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I wish Kanstul 1525 was available in C. |
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Flügelhorn is a band instrument. |
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| ZeroMan wrote: | | Cheesehead wrote: | | One more question: why don't they make quality flugels in the key of C? |
Demand. The flügelhorn had its origins as a strictly band or military band instrument. Most players still use it primarily in a band setting, albeit a jazz band setting if in the Americas. To my knowledge, most flügelhorn parts in a classical setting are written for a Bb flügelhorn. |
Most of the parts in the music I surveyed for my dissertation on the orchestral literature of the flugelhorn were indeed for Bb instruments. I think the understanding with the flugelhorn is that it exists in Bb. I do have a mid-19th century F soprano flugelhorn that I received as a graduation gift, and many consider the Mahillon piccolo trumpets really as more like piccolo flugelhorns. But, the flugelhorn is used more readily in band settings. Arrangers like myself like to add the flugelhorn voice in a large brass ensemble, or in a high school marching band of some size (more than 100) for added warmth in the middle of the brass range. Some high school bands have gone to them entirely in the place of the mellophone in F as it blends better, sounds better, and is better in tune. Others have gone to Bb marching horns, which are beasts and are difficult to play with control due to the exceptionally small bore and long length of the horn taper. |
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tommy t.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Flügelhorn is a band instrument. |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: |
Most of the parts in the music I surveyed for my dissertation on the orchestral literature of the flugelhorn were indeed for Bb instruments. I think the understanding with the flugelhorn is that it exists in Bb. |
I know that you did quite a search for your "perfect" flugel. What is your opinion on the bore size question?
Tommy T.
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Flügelhorn is a band instrument. |
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| tommy t. wrote: | | dr_trumpet wrote: |
Most of the parts in the music I surveyed for my dissertation on the orchestral literature of the flugelhorn were indeed for Bb instruments. I think the understanding with the flugelhorn is that it exists in Bb. |
I know that you did quite a search for your "perfect" flugel. What is your opinion on the bore size question?
Tommy T. |
I played a number, as you know...three years in a quest to play all the horns I could play, in all the available flavors. ITG, NTC, other places...
Fred Powell handed me a Conn Vintage One at NTC in 2002, and I loved it. But, I had just bought my Monette Bb a week before NTC (paid and took delivery), so my wife said NO. Four months later, she relented, Fred made me one, billed it through Donovan at Springfield Music. Best flugel I've played, bar none. I've owned a Yamaha, a Getzen 4 valve (great for playing trombone parts on a flugelhorn), and a couple others. The smaller bore, more focused sound of the Conn, in combination with a red brass bell, made it perfect.
For me.....
How is Saara doing? I hope she and her family are well! And you and the Mrs.?
All my best,
Al |
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James B. Quick
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, are you all a bunch of small bore weenies? I love my .475 bore Mario Corso flugel. I use a huge mthpce, and the horn can play nice flowery regular flugel parts, or it can scream like crazy!!! jbqd |
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| James B. Quick wrote: | | Oh, are you all a bunch of small bore weenies? I love my .475 bore Mario Corso flugel. I use a huge mthpce, and the horn can play nice flowery regular flugel parts, or it can scream like crazy!!! jbqd |
Good luck with that....but, when you have hernia surgery, don't call us looking for sympathy...  |
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connloyalist
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: | | Most of the parts in the music I surveyed for my dissertation on the orchestral literature of the flugelhorn were indeed for Bb instruments |
Interesting, I wasn't aware that you had studied the flugelhorn. Did you by chance run across the use of flugelhorns in bands in the Netherlands (where I live) and Belgium?
Around here there is a type of band called the "Fanfare" (as opposed to the "Harmonie" which is (more or less?) equivalent to a concert band). The composition of this is roughly a cross between a brass band and a concert band. Anyway, it doesn't contain any clarinets, flutes, oboes, etc. The clarinet parts are covered by a section of flugelhorns. In a decently sized fanfare of between 40 and 50 people you would like to have 9-12 flugelhorns (3 or 4 players to each part).
So although fanfare-bands are not as common anymore as concert bands, in the Netherlands the flugelhorn is a widely used instrument and there are plenty of amateur musicians for whom it is their main/only instrument.
Regards, Christine
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James B. Quick
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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dr_... | Quote: | | Good luck with that....but, when you have hernia surgery, don't call us looking for sympathy... |
I think I had those removed... Are they next to the cerebellum? jbqd |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Me Too |
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| ZeroMan wrote: | | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | That said, to me, most all the larger-bored flugelhorns I have played sound a little more "trumpety" than the smaller bores. However, other players do not seem to have that issue, so it's probably just me. Maybe the larger bore makes it too easy for me to overblow them...
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I agree..... I think a flügelhorn with a .460 bore is easier to play like a trumpet. One of the advertised advantages of a large bore flügelhorn is the supposed ease with which a player can switch between trumpet & flügelhorn. |
.460" easier to play? Even in the upper register? |
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Richard III
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Easier to play like a trumpet is not easier to play. Flugel is something you can play leaning back, legs crossed, no air support, looking like you are falling asleep ripping off amazing licks and wowing the crowd. Trumpet is work. Who wants work?
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bassguy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Easier to play like a trumpet is not easier to play. Flugel is something you can play leaning back, legs crossed, no air support, looking like you are falling asleep ripping off amazing licks and wowing the crowd. Trumpet is work. Who wants work? |
Sorry Richard III but "easy" (in any context) & "work" are contradictory term, so I am confused. So I will be more direct in my inquiry: all things equal (player, mpc, etc) will a .460 bore limit range significantly? (You wrote that you haven't played a large bore fh since the 70s & can't remember)
I ask because I am slowly getting my chops back, love my sound, but am getting frustrated with some range & endurance issues. Tomorrow nught I will attend a performance of a trumpet & keyboard combo in a venue where I perform frequently as a bassist. I am crossing my fingers that he will have a smal bore flugelhorn that I can try out. (No music stores around here that have flugelhorns to compare. I am considering a used Jupiter 846, we'll see. |
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TrumpetMD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: | | So I will be more direct in my inquiry: all things equal (player, mpc, etc) will a .460 bore limit range significantly? |
The best answer I can give is YMMV.
I've mostly played on a .460 bore flugelhorn for the past 30+ years. I've been on a bit of an extended safari. So in recent days, I've played on smaller bore horns (Conn V1, Yamaha 8315, Bach 183) and horns with bore sizes between the two (Yamaha 631, Jupiter 846, and other 631 clones).
For me, what comes "out of the horn" is independent of bore size. In addition, my range and endurance are also seem to be independent of bore size.
However, for me, what is different, is what I feel "behind the horn". (In other words, the feedback I receive from the horn.) The .460 horns feel a little more trumpet-like, while still sounding like a flugelhorn. In addition, for me, the .460 horns tend to have more presence.
Again, in the end, you have to decide what works for you. Some like larger bores, some like smaller bores. Others split the difference, and go for Yamaha 631 or a 631 clone.
Mike
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Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheesehead wrote: | | I wish Kanstul 1525 was available in C. |
Kanstul made just one 1525 in the key of C. It was ordered by a man who passed away before he could take delivery of the horn. Zig offered it to me at a remarkable price and I would have bought it, if I had had the coin at the time. Instead, it was purchased by a dealer in Moreno Valley, I believe. At the time, I suggested to Charles Hargett that they could offer the 1525 C with a 1510 C in a double case for church players and the like.
Zig vowed he would never make another. Still, Zig is gone and they have the specs. You could ask.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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