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bore size flugelhorn


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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:
Hmm.....

I haven't re-read all of the posts and threads on this. However, as pointed out above there seems to have been a lot of switching mouthpieces on flugel in a search for something that feels good, plays easily, and sounds nice.

To all that, I'll make a couple of blanket statements. I don't know how much - if at all - they apply to you. I haven't heard you play, seen you play, I'm just a guy on the internet (one who teaches a fair amount of trumpet, brass, and band instruments in general, to be fair).

1. Switching is not conducive to growth. Consistency is.

Hi Crazy Finn

I couldn't agree more.


My beginner trumpets all have 7C mouthpieces. I don't love the 7C, I doubt it's perfect for every one of them. However, at this stage of their development, I don't think it matters a whole lot. What matters is good air, embouchure, and practicing on a consistent basis.

I again agree.

I also play tennis. Much like on trumpet, I'm a little bit of an equipment junkie. When I bought my current racquet, I play tested at least 30 (if not more) over the course of several months. However, if I were only a beginner and had trouble just hitting consistently, it wouldn't really matter which racquet I had, as long as it was a decent one. The equipment wouldn't be a barrier to my improvement, my technique would be.

I again agree. As well as convergence insufficiency, I was also born with an eye tracking condition (much to the consultant's surprise it doesn't cause me any trouble with reading or sight reading) which results in me being beyond bad at ball sports. If I manage to hit the ball at all, which is purely random, it is just as likely to be with my wrist or the handle of the racquet. Needless to say, it wouldn't matter at all which racquet I used.

All the best

Lou


It never hurts to have a good mouthpiece. However, with your Currys and Wicks (though some would say that the Wick is NOT a good mouthpiece) and Yamahas, you have good mouthpieces - they were well designed and manufactured.

However, at this stage of your playing - it's far more likely that that part of the playing equation that is causing the most problems is not your horn or your mouthpieces - it's you. Don't feel bad, that's true of most trumpet players out there - a group that includes 5th graders, high schoolers, and even trumpet majors in college. Your horn doesn't change from day to day, and your mouthpiece doesn't either (unless you are playing a different one). However, WE are NOT the same every day. We are not robots. We can play things on a Thursday that we sometimes can't on a Monday or in the evening or the morning, and so forth.

So, pick a mouthpieces and stick with it. Stop having more variables that vary and leave just the one, for now - you. Play the same piece for a week, two weeks, even three weeks and see if you get better overall. Not am I better today than yesterday, but am I better in three weeks than I was before. Baseball statisticians would say that you can't tell much from a small sample size - and this is the same way. If things feel bad and aren't getting better in a few weeks - well, then it might be time to try a new variable in there and see if that works better.

2. Equipment does not solve technical or playing issues.

It might slightly improve something or worsen something, but for the most part - there is no magic in mouthpieces or horns. They are just hunks of metal and plumbing. You're the one supplying the air, sound, and notes.

It's easy to think that ... gee, if I only get a slighly smaller or deeper or flatter or thinner mouthpiece, then I'll play and sound better. Or, I need a smaller bore or a larger bore horn and it'll play better for me. And you might, a little bit. But, only a little. But, if you're not playing playing correctly, if your technique is problematic - then it matter little as to which mouthpiece or horn you're using. You'll end up with a drawer full of mouthpieces and you still won't play or sound any better.

Trumpet (or flugel) is hard. Good luck.


As a 10 to 13 year old New Englander my outlook was completely no nonsense & I took pride in not caring about my instrument or mouthpiece. I had a mindset in which I made the instrument play, not vice versa. (Later "educators" filled my head with crap & made me overly self conscious about certain aspects of my playing AND equipment)

That said, I know what embiuchure is the right one, & I have an ynbelievable memory & a strong recollection aa to how to play. It"s been a struggle & imediately this mouthpuwcd makes quite a difference. By comparison the others seem downright unplayable.This mouthpiece is like playing a teumpet. No aching facial muscles. No build up of air in my upper cheeks....non of those issues I've veen dealing with playing all these other mouthpieces II can't really account for that at all. The 11F4 looks about as deep as the 13F4. Feels as deep. On some levels sounds smoother than the 13F4 (because the 13 has more upper mids, whereas the 11 is scooped & emphasizes highs & lower mids).

I did overdo it yesterday & today (predictably) I am getting lots of air with the sound. Lip swelling? I touched upon that concern yesterday. This particular 11F4 I purchaswd used (for $13) & it's pretty tarnished as a very rounded rim (like the Holton mouthpieces). The new 13F4 has a completely different rim. The 13 is only 2 tenths if a millimeter wider, but it looks & feels much wider. * & is far more comfortable. I suspect if this rim doesn't sufficiently compensate for lip swelling, a new 11F4 might.

* on eBay private vendors sell their old tarnished Yamaha mouthpieces for more than new ones cost. They claim theirs are better than new because of rim changes.
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Benge.nut
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't put too much stock in advertised sizes in catalogs and online.

They are often far from the reality of what size the mouthpiece actually is. Or different manufacturers measure the mouthpiece from different parts of the inside ri,. So they are rarely uniformed from manufacturer to manufacturer.
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:
]

As a 10 to 13 year old New Englander my outlook was completely no nonsense & I took pride in not caring about my instrument or mouthpiece. I had a mindset in which I made the instrument play, not vice versa.

Hi bassguy

Sounds good obviously in reason.


(Later "educators" filled my head with crap & made me overly self conscious about certain aspects of my playing AND equipment)

That said, I know what embiuchure is the right one, & I have an ynbelievable memory & a strong recollection aa to how to play.

Ok.

It"s been a struggle & imediately this mouthpuwcd makes quite a difference. By comparison the others seem downright unplayable.This mouthpiece is like playing a teumpet. No aching facial muscles. No build up of air in my upper cheeks....non of those issues I've veen dealing with playing all these other mouthpieces II can't really account for that at all. The 11F4 looks about as deep as the 13F4. Feels as deep. On some levels sounds smoother than the 13F4 (because the 13 has more upper mids, whereas the 11 is scooped & emphasizes highs & lower mids).

I would only be guessing if I came up with a possible reason why. If it works, I don't suppose it matters if you really know why.

I did overdo it yesterday & today (predictably) I am getting lots of air with the sound. Lip swelling? I touched upon that concern yesterday.

Possibly and/or tired embouchure muscles.

This particular 11F4 I purchaswd used (for $13) & it's pretty tarnished as a very rounded rim (like the Holton mouthpieces). The new 13F4 has a completely different rim. The 13 is only 2 tenths if a millimeter wider, but it looks & feels much wider. * & is far more comfortable. I suspect if this rim doesn't sufficiently compensate for lip swelling, a new 11F4 might.

* on eBay private vendors sell their old tarnished Yamaha mouthpieces for more than new ones cost. They claim theirs are better than new because of rim changes.

Sorry, I have no idea about a rim change to the Yamaha mouthpieces.

Are you able to try a new 11F4 on trial and return, to see whether it has a more comfortable rim?

Take care

Lou


_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
bassguy wrote:
]

As a 10 to 13 year old New Englander my outlook was completely no nonsense & I took pride in not caring about my instrument or mouthpiece. I had a mindset in which I made the instrument play, not vice versa.

Hi bassguy

Sounds good obviously in r eason.


(Later "educators" filled my head with crap & made me overly self conscious about certain aspects of my playing AND equipment)

That said, I know what embiuchure is the right one, & I have an ynbelievable memory & a strong recollection aa to how to play.

Ok.

It"s been a struggle & imediately this mouthpuwcd makes quite a difference. By comparison the others seem downright unplayable.This mouthpiece is like playing a teumpet. No aching facial muscles. No build up of air in my upper cheeks....non of those issues I've veen dealing with playing all these other mouthpieces II can't really account for that at all. The 11F4 looks about as deep as the 13F4. Feels as deep. On some levels sounds smoother than the 13F4 (because the 13 has more upper mids, whereas the 11 is scooped & emphasizes highs & lower mids).

I would only be guessing if I came up with a possible reason why. If it works, I don't suppose it matters if you really know why.

I did overdo it yesterday & today (predictably) I am getting lots of air with the sound. Lip swelling? I touched upon that concern yesterday.

Possibly and/or tired embouchure muscles.

This particular 11F4 I purchaswd used (for $13) & it's pretty tarnished as a very rounded rim (like the Holton mouthpieces). The new 13F4 has a completely different rim. The 13 is only 2 tenths if a millimeter wider, but it looks & feels much wider. * & is far more comfortable. I suspect if this rim doesn't sufficiently compensate for lip swelling, a new 11F4 might.

* on eBay private vendors sell their old tarnished Yamaha mouthpieces for more than new ones cost. They claim theirs are better than new because of rim changes.

Sorry, I have no idea about a rim change to the Yamaha mouthpieces.

Are you able to try a new 11F4 on trial and return, to see whether it has a more comfortable rim?

Take care

Lou



I planned on purchasing a new 11F4, but the cheaper vendors are out of stock. (The Yamaha standard series goes for $36.99-39.99 new. One eBay vendor sells those for $75. Not the GRP series. either!)

That was my game plan: to just continue on this mouthpiece until it proves to be too small, & then see what a new one has to offer. Ironically I do have a scheduled flugelhorn debut on May 26th, playing Yo Yo Ma's cello part an octave higher in the James Taylor song, "You & I again". Pretty easy, but maybe I should have. the newer mpc hear beforehand.
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:

I planned on purchasing a new 11F4, but the cheaper vendors are out of stock. (The Yamaha standard series goes for $36.99-39.99 new. One eBay vendor sells those for $75. Not the GRP series. either!)

Hi Bassguy

Ok, I understand.


That was my game plan: to just continue on this mouthpiece until it proves to be too small, & then see what a new one has to offer.

I'm sorry, but I'm getting confused. I fully understand the idea of staying with this mouthpiece until if/when it proves to be too small, but what do you mean by seeing what a new one has to offer. If you mean a new 11F4, since you say that the new Yamaha rims are flatter than the previous ones, are you expecting the new flatter rim to be or feel larger?

Ironically I do have a scheduled flugelhorn debut on May 26th, playing Yo Yo Ma's cello part an octave higher in the James Taylor song, "You & I again". Pretty easy, but maybe I should have. the newer mpc hear beforehand.

Great, I really hope that it will go well. I'm not sure why you think that you would need newer mouthpiece gear beforehand. That to be honest appears to be presuming that a new 11F4 or something else? will give you some advantage over what you are already playing, and I reckon that it is 50 50 whether this would be the case. What would serve you well in my opinion, is a good daily practice schedule on a consistent set-up, with regular breaks and not overdoing it.

All the best

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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jonalan
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Joined: 25 Dec 2005
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Location: "Show Me"

PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:

If anyone has tried the Adams F4, I would love to hear your impressions.

Regards, G.
flugelhorn/

Well, I've tried an Adams F4, but I don't do impressions.
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GR pieces
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello jonalan, if no impressions, how about F4 opinions, observations, findings, or even.... Grokkings ;)

Saluti, Guido
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
Hello jonalan, if no impressions, how about F4 opinions, observations, findings, or even.... Grokkings

Saluti, Guido

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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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