| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:21 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| bassguy wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | More importantly, I finally got my Curry 3FL-M today. It's comfortable & the range is decent, but my sound on that mouthpiece is a bit thin. You described the tiny bored Bundy as "cornetty" yourself. Using any small bore, I would have to use a wide throated Wicks to fatten my intrinsically lean tone up. With my Curry FLM & .460" bore flugelhorn I sound "cornetty" enough as it is. Makes no sense to get leaner to go higher--& I really doubt my range would markedly improve! |
Glad to see you finally got the mouthpiece. Once again, everybody is different in approach. Good thing there are so many horns and mouthpieces in the world. It will be interesting to see where you end up in six months to a year. Please keep us updated. Best wishes. |
In my guitarist's auto repair shop the MP sounded bright. At home today I really like what I'm hearing. Darker than I thought it would be. |
Whenever I have a question, I record myself to hear what it really sounds like.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
GuidoCorona
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 377
Location: Summerville, SC
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just to make things even more interesting, the Adams F4 4-valve flugel sports a progressive bore size....
Bore ML .413" reaching to 0.433"
According to what I have been told, the entering bore into the valve block is 0.413, while the exit bore is 0.433.
See Trent Austin ACB shop at:
http://austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/custom-adams-f4-
If anyone has tried the Adams F4, I would love to hear your impressions.
Regards, G.
flugelhorn/
_________________
Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just out of curiousity, does anyone here think the difference between 11mm (.433") & 11.2mm (.441") is significant, all things equal?
Surprising to me, the "traditional" .413" French bore size seemed to be defined (so I assumed)) by Cuesnon, but the pre WWII Cuesnon have .440" bores. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Richard III wrote: | | bassguy wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | More importantly, I finally got my Curry 3FL-M today. It's comfortable & the range is decent, but my sound on that mouthpiece is a bit thin. You described the tiny bored Bundy as "cornetty" yourself. Using any small bore, I would have to use a wide throated Wicks to fatten my intrinsically lean tone up. With my Curry FLM & .460" bore flugelhorn I sound "cornetty" enough as it is. Makes no sense to get leaner to go higher--& I really doubt my range would markedly improve! |
Glad to see you finally got the mouthpiece. Once again, everybody is different in approach. Good thing there are so many horns and mouthpieces in the world. It will be interesting to see where you end up in six months to a year. Please keep us updated. Best wishes. |
In my guitarist's auto repair shop the MP sounded bright. At home today I really like what I'm hearing. Darker than I thought it would be. |
Whenever I have a question, I record myself to hear what it really sounds like. |
Venues differ, just like the Garage in which rehearse versus my place.
I still think that maybe Gerrard Schwaetz' cornet sound (on that old Nonesuch album of Cornet favorites) might be darker than my present flugelhorn sound with my 3FL-M. Does rose, or red brass really darken a flugwlhorn markedly? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bassguy wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | bassguy wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | More importantly, I finally got my Curry 3FL-M today. It's comfortable & the range is decent, but my sound on that mouthpiece is a bit thin. You described the tiny bored Bundy as "cornetty" yourself. Using any small bore, I would have to use a wide throated Wicks to fatten my intrinsically lean tone up. With my Curry FLM & .460" bore flugelhorn I sound "cornetty" enough as it is. Makes no sense to get leaner to go higher--& I really doubt my range would markedly improve! |
Glad to see you finally got the mouthpiece. Once again, everybody is different in approach. Good thing there are so many horns and mouthpieces in the world. It will be interesting to see where you end up in six months to a year. Please keep us updated. Best wishes. |
In my guitarist's auto repair shop the MP sounded bright. At home today I really like what I'm hearing. Darker than I thought it would be. |
Whenever I have a question, I record myself to hear what it really sounds like. |
Venues differ, just like the Garage in which rehearse versus my place.
I still think that maybe Gerrard Schwaetz' cornet sound (on that old Nonesuch album of Cornet favorites) might be darker than my present flugelhorn sound with my 3FL-M. Does rose, or red brass really darken a flugwlhorn markedly? |
This will be a fun discussion. I went back and listened to Schwartz' cornet sound. Quite a bit of brilliance in his splendid cornet tone. But right next to that on Youtube was this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM4LznuHPqM
A comparison of one player going from pocket trumpet to trumpet, to cornet, to flugelhorn and ending with mellophone. Nice to hear it from the other side of the bell. I play all of them and have recorded myself. He's a little mellow on the trumpet but still, quite interesting.
About the metal making a difference. If we can get Guido to add his experience, much can be exposed. I have one cornet, a Conn 80A with an original bell and another with a copper bell. Huge difference. But the copper one is also larger and the bell flare makes a huge difference too.
If you sound brighter on your flugel than Schwartz does on his cornet, we have quite the issue. My guess is that you are seriously playing your flugel like a trumpet and overblowing it.
I just thought of a fun road trip for you. Doug Teeter is the dealer for Carolbrass products and is in Fresno. I've been there and he is seriously quite the gentleman who allowed me to try out anything I wanted and was a great help in my search for a new horn. Guido has dealt with him extensively and just talking on the phone with him will tell you alot. Carolbrass products are one of the best deals going.
CAROLBRASS - USA. 5491 N.Wilson Ave Fresno, Ca. 93704. Tel: 559 436-5247 Cell phone: 559 301-0858. Mail: dteeter5491@att.net. Attn: Mr. Doug Teeter ...
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Richard III wrote: | | bassguy wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | bassguy wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | More importantly, I finally got my Curry 3FL-M today. It's comfortable & the range is decent, but my sound on that mouthpiece is a bit thin. You described the tiny bored Bundy as "cornetty" yourself. Using any small bore, I would have to use a wide throated Wicks to fatten my intrinsically lean tone up. With my Curry FLM & .460" bore flugelhorn I sound "cornetty" enough as it is. Makes no sense to get leaner to go higher--& I really doubt my range would markedly improve! |
Glad to see you finally got the mouthpiece. Once again, everybody is different in approach. Good thing there are so many horns and mouthpieces in the world. It will be interesting to see where you end up in six months to a year. Please keep us updated. Best wishes. |
In my guitarist's auto repair shop the MP sounded bright. At home today I really like what I'm hearing. Darker than I thought it would be. |
Whenever I have a question, I record myself to hear what it really sounds like. |
Venues differ, just like the Garage in which rehearse versus my place.
I still think that maybe Gerrard Schwaetz' cornet sound (on that old Nonesuch album of Cornet favorites) might be darker than my present flugelhorn sound with my 3FL-M. Does rose, or red brass really darken a flugwlhorn markedly? |
This will be a fun discussion. I went back and listened to Schwartz' cornet sound. Quite a bit of brilliance in his splendid cornet tone. But right next to that on Youtube was this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM4LznuHPqM
A comparison of one player going from pocket trumpet to trumpet, to cornet, to flugelhorn and ending with mellophone. Nice to hear it from the other side of the bell. I play all of them and have recorded myself. He's a little mellow on the trumpet but still, quite interesting.
About the metal making a difference. If we can get Guido to add his experience, much can be exposed. I have one cornet, a Conn 80A with an original bell and another with a copper bell. Huge difference. But the copper one is also larger and the bell flare makes a huge difference too.
If you sound brighter on your flugel than Schwartz does on his cornet, we have quite the issue. My guess is that you are seriously playing your flugel like a trumpet and overblowing it.
I just thought of a fun road trip for you. Doug Teeter is the dealer for Carolbrass products and is in Fresno. I've been there and he is seriously quite the gentleman who allowed me to try out anything I wanted and was a great help in my search for a new horn. Guido has dealt with him extensively and just talking on the phone with him will tell you alot. Carolbrass products are one of the best deals going.
CAROLBRASS - USA. 5491 N.Wilson Ave Fresno, Ca. 93704. Tel: 559 436-5247 Cell phone: 559 301-0858. Mail: dteeter5491@att.net. Attn: Mr. Doug Teeter ... |
Actually the Girard Schwartz thing I am dealing with entirely from memory of an LP on a very low end system. Now I have a great system that unforgivingly tends to reveal the flaws (weak links) of the source material. Frequently, CDs that replaced my old LPs sound entirely different, so I'll take your word about Schwartz' cornet sound. Relative to my friend's Holton trumpet my flugelhorn does sound like a flugelhorn. As my ear becomes acclimated to the flugelhorn it seems to get brighter.
Right after stating emphatically that I'm going to stick with what I have, I have the urge to order another Chinese flugelhorn. This time I am thinking of going with an intermediate bore. I have a choice between .433" or .441, with .433 being more expensive. Many of these instruments are entirely rose brass except for the valve casing & slides.
On YouTube there is a "Hey Kids Flugelhorn" video in which someone demonstrates a Kanstul 1025 (brass)1525 (with a copper bell) but they are different horns. He also demonstrates a Bobby Shew flugelhorn, Stomvi (silver & defnately the brightest) & a Conn Vintage 1. I don't see how one can discern differences in metals & plating unless all other factors are identical. On that video, the player seemed to struggle a bit with the high notes on the Conn. But the Conn was played last & fatigue might've been a factor.
When I was seriously considering a .413" bore I came across a Kanstul 925 that was nickel plated. The only cheap .Chinese .413" bore flugelhorn on eBay I found was plated in black nickel. I read somewhere that nickel plating exaggerates whatever characteristics the horn has.
Do you think .441 & .433 is significant? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GuidoCorona
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 377
Location: Summerville, SC
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Richard, you are right…. My friend Doug Teeter of Carolbrass USA is a real gentleman and a fount of knowledge about high brass in general, and Carolbrass instruments in particular.
I selected my Bb cornet talking to Doug at some length…. Seeking a cornet with relatively warm sound, which could become somewhat more brilliant with a shallower mouthpiece, and creamier and darker with a deeper one. On the other hand, I was seeking an instrument that would keep some of the more diffused and lyrical character of a flugel.
He recommended the Carolbrass CCR-7772R-GSS short triple crook model with the large 5.31 inch gold brass bell and the large 0.465 bore that I had already spotted in online discussions . Doug thought that the yellow brass model was going to be more than likely far too brilliant for what I was seeking, while the red brass variant was likely going to sound quite a bit darker no matter what mouthpieces I selected.
Well…. It turned out to be a bull’s eye…. CCR-7772 is exactly what I was hoping…. Romantic and lyrical when I want to sink into a melody, almost as if I were playing my beloved 1525 flugel, but brilliant in a subtly subdued way when I apply one of the shallower pieces like Curry DC, Stork B and D, and even the most brilliant of my lot, the Curry P.
If I were to name my preferred MP for it, it would probably be the Flip Oakes 1.25 Extreme. Unlike its flugel counterpart, ththis piece is a very nimble generalist…. Yes, it does possess a dark core, with fundamentals as pronounced as those of a Wick no-letter, yet it has the ability of exposing overtones in a way which reminds me of the Curry flugel pieces, even more so than the cornet mouthpieces branded by mark. In spite of its dark core, and its “extreme” appellation, the F.O. Extreme for cornet has an easy upper register that barely falls short of a Curry DC or a Stork Vacchiano B
BassGuy, you will find a more detailed discussion of CCR-7772 on TH at:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136625
Note Bassguy that even in my very limited experience with horns and mouthpieces, I have realized that tone, ease of range, intonation, and most other operational and tonal parameters of a horn cannot be imputed to one single design factor in either the horn or the mouthpiece…. Rather the interaction in the whole is much more complex than the mere summ of the parts, and the weightiest of all the parts involved is neither found in the horn nor is it a feature of the mouthpiece. Rather, it is the player, with all their skills, limitations, and sound concepts… And sometimes their peculiar obsessions.
Corollary: It is impossible to tell a priori if an arbitrary flugel from a little known brand with a 0.433 bore will be inherently much different from another equally unknown flugel wih a 0.441 bore. And if they were different, how significant the difference would be, and which one a player would prefer. and why.
G.
_________________
Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GuidoCorona wrote: | Hi Richard, you are right…. My friend Doug Teeter of Carolbrass USA is a real gentleman and a fount of knowledge about high brass in general, and Carolbrass instruments in particular.
I selected my Bb cornet talking to Doug at some length…. Seeking a cornet with relatively warm sound, which could become somewhat more brilliant with a shallower mouthpiece, and creamier and darker with a deeper one. On the other hand, I was seeking an instrument that would keep some of the more diffused and lyrical character of a flugel.
He recommended the Carolbrass CCR-7772R-GSS short triple crook model with the large 5.31 inch gold brass bell and the large 0.465 bore that I had already spotted in online discussions . Doug thought that the yellow brass model was going to be more than likely far too brilliant for what I was seeking, while the red brass variant was likely going to sound quite a bit darker no matter what mouthpieces I selected.
Well…. It turned out to be a bull’s eye…. CCR-7772 is exactly what I was hoping…. Romantic and lyrical when I want to sink into a melody, almost as if I were playing my beloved 1525 flugel, but brilliant in a subtly subdued way when I apply one of the shallower pieces like Curry DC, Stork B and D, and even the most brilliant of my lot, the Curry P.
If I were to name my preferred MP for it, it would probably be the Flip Oakes 1.25 Extreme. Unlike its flugel counterpart, ththis piece is a very nimble generalist…. Yes, it does possess a dark core, with fundamentals as pronounced as those of a Wick no-letter, yet it has the ability of exposing overtones in a way which reminds me of the Curry flugel pieces, even more so than the cornet mouthpieces branded by mark. In spite of its dark core, and its “extreme” appellation, the F.O. Extreme for cornet has an easy upper register that barely falls short of a Curry DC or a Stork Vacchiano B
BassGuy, you will find a more detailed discussion of CCR-7772 on TH at:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136625
Note Bassguy that even in my very limited experience with horns and mouthpieces, I have realized that tone, ease of range, intonation, and most other operational and tonal parameters of a horn cannot be imputed to one single design factor in either the horn or the mouthpiece…. Rather the interaction in the whole is much more complex than the mere summ of the parts, and the weightiest of all the parts involved is neither found in the horn nor is it a feature of the mouthpiece. Rather, it is the player, with all their skills, limitations, and sound concepts… And sometimes their peculiar obsessions.
Corollary: It is impossible to tell a priori if an arbitrary flugel from a little known brand with a 0.433 bore will be inherently much different from another equally unknown flugel wih a 0.441 bore. And if they were different, how significant the difference would be, and which one a player would prefer. and why.
G. |
You know those Carol brass instruments are pricey for a guy who's prospects for playing flugelhorn are so tenuous. Couple that with how little money I make gigging.
Ironically both you & Richard III favor 10.5,mm bore flugelhorns & these Carol brass flugels are 11 like a Yamaha that Mangione plays.
I will state that now that I am using a Curry FLM as my primary mpc to deal with range/endurance issues, going with an intermediate size with a rose brass bell seems appealing. It could yeild a smoother sound (because of the overall conicity, & the predominantly copper bell) seems appealing. I am thinking about a Dillon that's a decent bang for the buck.
Middle of the road. Just Luke a dead armadillo! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Ironically both you & Richard III favor 10.5,mm bore flugelhorns & these Carol brass flugels are 11 like a Yamaha that Mangione plays.
I will state that now that I am using a Curry FLM as my primary mpc to deal with range/endurance issues, going with an intermediate size with a rose brass bell seems appealing. It could yeild a smoother sound (because of the overall conicity, & the predominantly copper bell) seems appealing. I am thinking about a Dillon that's a decent bang for the buck.
|
It could be that though we favor smaller for ourselves, you seem to like a bit larger bore and CarolBrass are just great deals. Plus if you go visit Doug and let him guide you, I'll bet there will be a great deal there and you know what you are getting. I just checked the Dillon price and it's $500. Yes, the Chinese are less expensive, but a sticking valve or a damaged one like Gordon H. got are annoying. Plus you didn't play it before you bought it.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GuidoCorona
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 377
Location: Summerville, SC
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bassguy, my old DIllon flugel developed compression probs and flacking lacquer on the valve block... Why not call up Trent AUstin and see what interest used flugels he has in his stash.... And do the same with Dillon. You might find something of better value for your $500 budget. G.
_________________
Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Richard III"] | Quote: | Ironically both you & Richard III favor 10.5,mm bore flugelhorns & these Carol brass flugels are 11 like a Yamaha that Mangione plays.
I will state that now that I am using a Curry FLM as my primary mpc to deal with range/endurance issues, going with an intermediate size with a rose brass bell seems appealing. It could yeild a smoother sound (because of the overall conicity, & the predominantly copper bell) seems appealing. I am thinking about a Dillon that's a decent bang for the buck.
|
It could be that though we favor smaller for ourselves, you seem to like a bit larger bore and CarolBrass are just great deals. Plus if you go visit Doug and let him guide you, I'll bet there will be a great deal there and you know what you are getting. I just checked the Dillon price and it's $500. Yes, the Chinese are less expensive, but a sticking valve or a damaged one like Gordon H. got are annoying. Plus you didn't play it before you bought ipersonally
Are you saying that Gordon H got a Dillon, it had a sticky valve & Perry, Jim, those guys didn't take care of it? Dillon CS is supposed to be comparable to Trent. I know personally that these guys are good, & I have driven them crazy with my mouthpiece returns, etc.
Or, was it Gordon's Thoman (from Germany) that has a sticky valve. If Gordon had trouble with his valve on a Dillon maybe I should refuse the order. (Also I do get a trial. Shipping back is cheaper than driving distances.
What I am hoping for is a darker smoother sound using the FLM even if the sound is a tad smaller. Maybe a tiny extension range/endurance.
If that local HS band teacher let me have 5 minutes with his Jupiter maybe I'd get a senve of how a .433" blows. This guy was hired once by my guitarist to play in his Afro-Cuban jazz group & was disappointed to learn that they didn't need an "Eddie Palmieri type" on a permanent basis--&he's pretty good. Not getting the time of day like this is how I've evolved into a cynic & SOB.. Lots of very good local musicians who almost never get to play in public. On a level I am lucky to have these opportunities, but it's my only sourse of income while awaiting my SSD hearing. Its kind of stupid spending as much on instruments. The Dillon is on its way. If Gordon H had unresolved issues with them I'll just refuse the order. Let me know--but so far their CS seems great. That's why I took thus risk. Thanx |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
See the Chinese flugel thread. That's what he got.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: bore size flugelhorn |
|
|
| rein wrote: |
the bore size of a flugelhorn ... in what way does it effect the sound. |
It is the least important spec. Other design elements can completely nullify or reverse the effects of bore size re: tone.
Volume I think is different, but there too other design elements are more important. In this case, specifically mpc choice. A .413" bore flugel will likely play pretty loud if you stick a mpc with a .250" drill size and large backbore; i.e. Flip Oakes extreme. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TrumpetMD wrote: | | furcifer wrote: | | I love my old Getzen Eterna 4-valve .... |
Getzen Eterna 896 4-valve flugelhorn club is growing ... furcifer, trumpetmd, gmonady, rowuk. I've had mind since the 1970s.
Anyone else?
Mike |
That was the first flugel I ever played. It was Dad's. He recently traded it in at Dillon's for their version of what is the ACB doubler's flugel. (And they took cash to boot)
I did not kill him over it, but it took considerable restraint not to. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Richard III wrote: | | See the Chinese flugel thread. That's what he got. |
Yeah, but Thoman's a German Company. I emailed them & didn't get coherent answers & that raised a red flag. Dillon is respected like Austin, they presumably test & tweak valves. My Hawk is actually an impressive bang for the buck. It's had a sticky valve, but if cleaning doesn't work (& the stickiness is diminishing anyway) I can drive it straight to the vendor in Rancho Cucamanga. (It has a 5 year warranty, but if the Dillon works out I will have to sell it)
But I really am stupid spending this money. My 8 gigs are local & i rarey make $600 per month.(Almost maxed on Visa l do live in my trailer on a rich guy's property for free (minus utilities) so you can see what an I'll reckless nvestment $290 for the Hawk, & $475 is for the Dillon, let alone a larger investment for a Carol.
BTW. Everyday I slowly play 'Feel so Good' a fifth down from the original key (G replacing the Hugh D). I can't play the whole 26 bars without getting poopwd. When I play those Es & Fs at the end I just don't 'feel so good'. My future doubling on flugelhorn is really indeterminate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: bore size flugelhorn |
|
|
| razeontherock wrote: | | rein wrote: |
the bore size of a flugelhorn ... in what way does it effect the sound. |
It is the least important spec. Other design elements can completely nullify or reverse the effects of bore size re: tone.
Volume I think is different, but there too other design elements are more important. In this case, specifically mpc choice. A .413" bore flugel will likely play pretty loud if you stick a mpc with a .250" drill size and large backbore; i.e. Flip Oakes extreme. |
That's right. Flip told me the FH & mouthpiece must be coupled.
Not only that, but Jack at Kanstul told me that the .453" 725 is a smaller horn than the .421" 1525 because the bell & flare of the 1525 is so great. You do have to look at the instrument somewhat wholisticslly. The FO Extreme is 'muy mas macho' for me...but someday... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've got a trumpet that cost me $40 at a thrift store. I put $190 into it to get it in perfect playing condition. I've got a cornet that ran me in the middle $100's and cost me around $160 to get it fixed up. Both are late 50's to early 60's small bore Conns. I play the cornet with a Conn 4 mouthpiece. The trumpet gets a Curry 7BC. I get just the sound I want from each. I play in a small jazz group and everything that I need comes out of my head. I don't think chasing some other instrument/mouthpiece combination will give me anything that I don't already have. I thought of this reading about people looking for the Committee copy or some other pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I should also mention that the King marching french horn cost me in the low $200's and it needed nothing done. I use a Schilke french horn mouthpiece that gives good intonation and pleasant tone. Same story there. Anything else that could be lacking is just me.
My point is that given an instrument that allows you to express what you want is probably where you should stop.
I watch some amazing players on Youtube. Bunch of people playing a trumpet of this or that kind or cornet or flugel, but all playing the same music. The micro analysis of a specific tone is probably not that important.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Richard III wrote: | I've got a trumpet that cost me $40 at a thrift store. I put $190 into it to get it in perfect playing condition. I've got a cornet that ran me in the middle $100's and cost me around $160 to get it fixed up. Both are late 50's to early 60's small bore Conns. I play the cornet with a Conn 4 mouthpiece. The trumpet gets a Curry 7BC. I get just the sound I want from each. I play in a small jazz group and everything that I need comes out of my head. I don't think chasing some other instrument/mouthpiece combination will give me anything that I don't already have. I thought of this reading about people looking for the Committee copy or some other pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I should also mention that the King marching french horn cost me in the low $200's and it needed nothing done. I use a Schilke french horn mouthpiece that gives good intonation and pleasant tone. Same story there. Anything else that could be lacking is just me.
My point is that given an instrument that allows you to express what you want is probably where you should stop.
I watch some amazing players on Youtube. Bunch of people playing a trumpet of this or that kind or cornet or flugel, but all playing the same music. The micro analysis of a specific tone is probably not that important. |
Hi Richard
I completely agree.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Richard III wrote: | I've got a trumpet that cost me $40 at a thrift store. I put $190 into it to get it in perfect playing condition. I've got a cornet that ran me in the middle $100's and cost me around $160 to get it fixed up. Both are late 50's to early 60's small bore Conns. I play the cornet with a Conn 4 mouthpiece. The trumpet gets a Curry 7BC. I get just the sound I want from each. I play in a small jazz group and everything that I need comes out of my head. I don't think chasing some other instrument/mouthpiece combination will give me anything that I don't already have. I thought of this reading about people looking for the Committee copy or some other pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I should also mention that the King marching french horn cost me in the low $200's and it needed nothing done. I use a Schilke french horn mouthpiece that gives good intonation and pleasant tone. Same story there. Anything else that could be lacking is just me.
My point is that given an instrument that allows you to express what you want is probably where you should stop.
I watch some amazing players on Youtube. Bunch of people playing a trumpet of this or that kind or cornet or flugel, but all playing the same music. The micro analysis of a specific tone is probably not that important. |
Ya know Richard! You sure have a lot of brass instruments. Trumpet designs dont vary much. At some ppint the industry decided what a trumpet is., Of course the trumpet isnt a "bastard" instrument like the flugelhorn. It seems the industry can't discern exactly what it is. Literally! Flip Oakes has told me thst if it doesnt have the traditional .409-.413 like the old French Besson or Cuesnon. Now I find out thst Cuesnon hsd been using large bores up until the end of WWII--about 60-65 years later into production?
Didn't you write that you had issues, range & intonations (maybe even endurance) limitations playing your Jupiter. You seemed to resolve those issues buying a more expensive Adams? Not exactly a fixer upper from a theft store was it?
AA for me I have range limitations too but I have been playing only since February 3rd this year. Obviously an FLM is far more useful in increasing & maintaining upper register. The caveat is that it's just a bit brighter than I want. (Remember, I am not a fan of the teumpet & don't want my flugelhorn to sound "trumpety"! The prevailing opinion us that .460 bores have a greater degree of cylindricality that creates an edgy, "trumpety" sound. I must say I have that a bit with the FLM. FL limits range & endurance & is actuslly a little too dark. I do want just a little darker & hope that the extra conicity of a .433" bore will help, along with a rose bell. Also I must remind you that you mused that maybe if I played a much smaller bore flugelhorn that it would blow more freely going into the upper range. That's kinda what got me wondering if the smaller instrument would go higher a little more easily. It apparently did for you, going from .433" to .413.
Just as a matter of interest I posted in comeback players. I posted that I started out on a little Besson student cornet, teaching myself basically by playing along with Tijuana Brass LPs using a song book. I didn't work very hard, wasn't disciplined or methodical, but after about 3 years I was pretty strong.
I had planned on progressing such that I would gain back my tschnique, range & endurance in about as many months (3) as it took years. Subsequently after about 10 weeks I am playing more or less like I did at 6 months on cornet. But a Flugelhorn is a big instrument the cornet, little by comparison.
The gist of my question was, is this normal comeback progress after 35 years? That issue wasn't addressed really. I did get very strong advise about 1) taking lessons 2) make trumpet playing a priority in order to play flugelhorn (won't happen)
About lessons. Maybe I do need them, but first it has to be discerned if my difficulties are a result of being out of shspe--& never having developed flugelhorn chops per set back 35 years.
The only way to learn flugelhorn is by making the trumpet a greater priority? Based on what? Is there some study done on those only wanting to play flugelhorn at the exclusion if trumpet that concludes you can't be just a flugelhornist? Who besides Mangione & myself really favors flugelhorn that much,? OK, Mangione paid some dues first as a trumpeter, but I paid some dues too. Given the flugelhorn's hybrid nature it really seems to me that flugelhorn enthusiasts should be required to play both French horn & trumpet before buying a flugelhorn, taking their logic a step further.
It appears that there's an holistic outlook on behalf of trumpeters. Almost an all or nothing requirement to adhere to tradition & prevailing beliefs because "that's the way its done. I believe the flugelhorn thing is based more on employment prospects. You can't work, or teach full time being just a flugelhornist. So students are told to make trumpet their no. 1 priority. This has been advised me note than 6 or 7 times here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Didn't you write that you had issues, range & intonations (maybe even endurance) limitations playing your Jupiter. You seemed to resolve those issues buying a more expensive Adams? Not exactly a fixer upper from a theft store was it? |
Ah, the old days. When I was chasing some kind of better flugel version. The Jupiter had a fine sound but I wanted darker in those days. I had problems with range with that horn as well as a Conn Vintage One flugel. When I tried the Adams all of those went away. The Adams F2 was costly and very smokey. I passed it up. Then my interests started to change and I got tired of smokey and dark. The Adams F1 was light and easy to play. I came into some money and decided to pull the trigger on the F1. Fine playing horn. As time moved on I played flugel less and cornet more. Then I played the Bundy and it was a cross between a flugel and a cornet. If I knew what the future was back then, I could have saved a bunch of time and money and just bought one of those. So easy to play and flugelly enough for me now. Still, how much would I really play it? Not sure. I loves me the sound of a nice cornet. And the funny thing is, the thrift store finds are just great for getting a vintage cornet sound that works so well with my little dixieland band. So there's the whole story.
And I should say that the finds took a long time to find and would have cost much more had they been in great shape. The $40 trumpet could now sell for $600.
One of my favorite bands is Tuba Skinny and Shaye Cohn plays an old student Yamaha cornet and sounds great.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
