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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: |
Hi again,
Hi bassguy
I checked out the mouthpiece link & agree that the differences as presented aren't that marked. I was shocked at how dark the 6C came across.
I wasn't. I play a Bach 3CFL. If you compare the 6CFL and 3CFL on the Kanstul comparator, they have the same cup depth and shape. I would say that the sound on the Bach 6CFL was basically was I expected to hear.
However I have some doubt's concerning the recording. I am familiar with the Curry FLD & FL, & can tell you that even though the overall timbre is darker due to its added depth & wider throat, the FLD can be perceived as brighter than the FL due to a resonance peak (maybe 3khz...just a guess). No hint of that on the recordings.
Frankly the sound of this YouTube video seems muffled.
It doesn't sound particularly muffled to me, especially considering that he is using a felt mute. Regarding the resonance peak you mention, I think this may depend on the volume and/or pitch. I have a Bach 3B cornet mouthpiece. On paper it should be darker, since it has a deeper cup and a more open backbore than the 3C, and it is darker in the lower and middle registers and at quiet dynamics. However, as soon as I play loudly above the stave, it becomes pretty bright, and definitely noticeably brighter than the 3C. I've never been completely sure why. Yes, it has a more open backbore, but the only part of the mouthpiece as far as I understand which directly effects the amount of air which you can put through, is the throat, and the Bach 3B has the same 27 throat as the 3C.
Also, I did some playing along with the rwcording using my FL, & my FL was pretty bright compared to his.
I honestly think that this is a just a demonstration of your naturally brighter sound rather than anything wrong with the recording. This is not a criticism of your natural sound, some people just sound brighter than others, hence the available choice of mouthpieces with different parameters to suit different people.
On my FL-M I was noticeably brighter than the FL, & in person demonstrations for musician frends certainly confirmed that the FL was more flugelhorn sounding than the FLM.
I understand, thanks. It sounds like with your natural sound and maybe approach, the FLM is just too bright sounding for what you are looking for.
BTW, the Saturday night I went to the 29 Palms Inn to try out my friwnd's Bach 183, I went into the lobby with my own flugelhorn to demonstrate it to the young woman booking reservations. In my demonstration I used my Wicks 4FL & the deep resonance in that room was inspiring. To this day she tells people how the whole room vibrated, & she's looking forward to my incorporate flugelhorn solos in our act at the Inn.
Great news!
I can hit Gs on that 4FL like I can on the Curry 7FL. But not for long. I have to be cold to play the Wicks. It slots better then any of my other mouthpiwces--aa lonseries'm cold!
I understand, thanks.
Who knows, someday I might use it regularly. The Wicks is dark, but also has a resonance peak (maybe @ 800hz, or 1khz?) that gives it a certain presence & bite, that keeps it from sounding muffled. That Wicks mouthpiece plays so much better in the low to middle register.
Lastly, even though I wrote I am through screwing around with gear, I decided to take a look at Yamaha. (I was inspired by Grasso's flugelhorn comparison using his Yamaha 14F4. Yamaha fh mouthpieces shouldn't be overlooked given that they're cheap & well regarded.
Yes, I agree, and see no issue with trying Yamaha.
I looked into Yamah's standard series & found the 13F4 is a slightly smaller rimmed (16.66mm) version of the 14F4 (16.76mm). There is also a smaller rimmed 7F4 (16.24mm) but the shape of the v cup might differ a bit from the 13, 14, 16 & 17F4s, maybe not really different as ALL those models have 4.3mm throats-like the Curry FLs.
The Yamaha 11F4 is completwly different! It has a trumpet style U cup & a trumpet sized 3.80mm throat, & is a flugelhorn variation of it's Yamaha trumpet counterpart. The 11F4 is said to be a great starter for flugelhornusts. I ordered a used one for $13. I also ordered new 7F4 & 13F4 that can be returned. (Curiosity got the best of me!)
Please post how you get on. I honestly think that the 7F4 will be tool small. If you can return them, I'd suggest also trying a Yamaha 14F4 and maybe even the 16F4. You don't appear to have played anything particularly large since your comeback, and you may find that you do better on a large cup diameter. I had a brief go on the 16F4 with my colleagues Yamaha 631 flugel a few weeks back and it didn't seem noticeably much larger than my Bach 3CFL.
While on the subject, back in February I wrote that my target mouthpiece was a 7 or 5 FL, & that I should probably start with a 10.5, & progress to an 8.5 FL, and so forth. Guido urged me to consider just playing my target mouthpiece. (Carrying that logic a step further, I should just use that Wicks 4 FL!)
About mouthpieces, one THF user wrote that they are like shoe sizes, & only one can fit optimally. Well kids quickly outgrow shoes & players (& comeback players) outgrow mouthpieces as rhey develop.
I'm very sorry but I don't really agree with the idea of comeback players outgrowing mouthpieces as they develop. I'll explain more below.
On trumpet & cornet I started with a Bach 7C & ended with a Bach 1. One can ask if I were making a trumpet comeback, should I start with a 17.5mm inner rimmed Bach 1?
I feel that players generally have a size range which fits them. I personally feel that I do best with a cup diameter between 16.5 and 17.0mm. Whatever the quoted cup diameter, I do consider my old Bach 7C trumpet and cornet mouthpieces to have a cup diameter of 16.5mm. I'm not sure of the current situation with Bach, but after the Bach strike of around 2008, I personally believe that they re-tooled their mouthpiece production to better match the quoted cup diameter. I'm not sure whether it is true or rumour, but I heard that Vincent Bach himself put away a set of cherries of the first version Elkhart Bach mouthpieces, one for each model, which was his idea of he perfect representation of that particular model, and that these cherries were used to re-tool the mouthpiece production post-strike, making the 3C have a cup diameter of 16.30mm. The post strike cornet Bach 3Cs I tried seemed to suggest this, as they were all too small for me. Again rumour, but my understanding was that the pre-CNC Bach mouthpieces, made with manual cutters, gradually became larger as the tooling wore out, and that since more mouthpieces were made with some level of tool wear than on brand new tooling, that the larger sizes became more common, and the first CNC mouthpieces were made larger than spec. to match what the sizes had became. This again seems to be the case with my 2005 Bach 3Cs, my favourite of which, according to the UK tech. who measured it, is larger than some Bach 1 1/2Cs he has measured, and around the size of an average Bach 1 1/2C. I would say that my Bach 3C is along the same size as the 16.9mm Curry 3. rim. Regarding current mouthpiece production, I have no real idea, but believe that they are again larger than spec. Anyway, I've gone miles off topic.
Back to the topic in hand, I feel that I do best on a cup diameter around 16.5 - 17.0mm. If, and there is no chance of it, unless something was to happen out of my control, I was to give up playing for some time, I'd probably start at 16.5mm and work my way up to the larger diameter that I prefer. Conversely, If I was to do a lot more orchestral playing, and have a change in my life style (become a pro orchestral player, hardly likely) which meant I started playing for hours everyday, I may very well switch to a larger cup diameter and deeper cup, depending on the sound requirements of what I was doing.
I wouldn't start back on something smaller than 16.5mm, as I know from experience that I can't play the 16mm Denis Wick 5 diameter for more than 30 mins, without natural lip swelling meaning that it becomes too small, and I consider that starting back on a Bach 1 1/2C would be unnecessarily hard work. I'd probably start back on what has worked for the last 12 years, my large variant 3C.
If you did well on a Bach 1 last time, I'd personally go with something medium large, such as the Curry 3 or Yamaha 14, as a starting point, as I reckon that a Bach 1 sized flugel mouthpiece would be a toilet bowl.
Lastly, when you check out the godfather theme, also please remember to check out Mangione's original studio recording of Feel so Good. I want to see if you think his high d sounds trumpety. He is not Clark Terry or Marvin Stamm, but I think it's unfair for some to laugh & say he's the Kenny G of the flugelhorn.
Ok.
PS. How can one account for the pain while playing the shallow Curry FL-M or Conn 7 CFL.? Back pressure from the shallow cup? Frankly the least amount of backpressuer I experience is when playing the Wicks 4 FL. All the others, a significant build up off.air makes the uppermost portion of my cheeks puff out, while playing near the top of the staff & above.
It didn't seem to do Dizzy any harm lol. Seriously I'm surprised that you are experiencing this amount of back pressure from what is not really a shallow cup at all in the scheme of things. I'm no embouchure expert, and I don't want to even remotely send you down this path again, but I am wondering whether you have tension somewhere in your system, which is causing this back pressure in addition to what you describe as a historically lean and bright sound. Leaving your actual embouchure well alone, I personally would concentrate on ensuring that you don't have too much mouthpiece pressure, and that you don't have excessive tension in your throat, neck and shoulders, that could be translating to back pressure. You could also consider your tongue arch and position.
The shallow Yamaha 11F4 might provide some insight.
Yes, it may.
Could Alpha angle be a factor? I don't know.
I don't know either, especially since I would imagine that owing to their deep cup depth, that most flugel mouthpieces have a lower alpha angle, but maybe.
GR's analogy using a door hinge us jiiberish to me, I quickly lose patience reading ANYRHING GR writes. All muddied up with useless technical crap. Rather than lame analogy, a large illustration of the air stream inside a mouthpiece would suffice.
I strongly believe that GR knows his stuff, but I haven't read a great deal of it, and have no idea of a door hinge analogy.
Very generally speaking, I think of high and low alpha angles as being equivalent to a V or U shape respectively at the top of the cup. It is not this simple owing to the way a rim transitions into the top of the cup, but I see this as a simplistic visual representation of the idea.
Best wishes
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: |
Lastly, when you check out the godfather theme, also please remember to check out Mangione's original studio recording of Feel so Good. I want to see if you think his high d sounds trumpety. He is not Clark Terry or Marvin Stamm, but I think it's unfair for some to laugh & say he's the Kenny G of the flugelhorn. |
Hi bassguy
Regarding the Godfather theme, I believe that Freddie Hubbard is staying on trumpet, but I may be wrong. I have based my judgement in comparison to the following clip, when although he plays pretty high, it does have a characteristic flugel sound in the middle and low registers. Correspondingly, I do not hear the characteristic flugel sound in the Godfather.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwvxiBEPDdA
I may be wrong. I'd say that if it is flugel horn, it is a different one to on the clip above, or recorded using different recording equipment.
I've tried to look on Google for you, and have found this on Wikipedia.
It may be wrong, but it lists Freddie Hubbard only on trumpet, but Alan Rubin and Marvin Stamm on both trumpet and flugel.
Regarding Chuck Mangione, I wouldn't say that the high D sounds like a trumpet, but that as usual for flugel, he has more of a characteristic flugel sound in the middle and lower registers. (I would say the same of Freddie Hubbard) It is more the articulation than sound in my opinion, which keeps it sounding like a flugel. It sounds good whatever.
I love this clip. Does Doc sound trumpety? His flugel sound is definitely light and bright in my opinion. You know what, I don't think it matters, I really like how he plays this, and what a great arrangement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFac_omWrBg&t=127s
Take care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Hi again bassguy
Reading back my last post, I think that I make a relevant point.
In my honest opinion, it is not about the brightness of sound, but the approach. A flugel needs to be approached like a flugel.
In my opinion, whether or not this is what I am actually doing, I feel that it is a case of tuning slightly on the sharp side, and blowing down into the slot. This for me gives me my flugel sound. I once lent my flugel to someone, got it back, and was unhappy with my flugel sound, which seemed more trumpet-like than normal. I then realised that they had pulled my tuning bit out quite a way. A return to my usual position, and no longer having to lip up the pitch in order not to be flat, and my flugel sound returned. I'm however a player who has a pretty good sense of intonation, and rather than sounding off tune, will tend to subconsciously lip up or down to keep in tune. Lipping up does not work for me on flugel.
Have you tried pushing your tuning bit in and blowing down in the slot?
This approach works for me.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | Hi again bassguy
Reading back my last post, I think that I make a relevant point.
In my honest opinion, it is not about the brightness of sound, but the approach. A flugel needs to be approached like a flugel.
In my opinion, whether or not this is what I am actually doing, I feel that it is a case of tuning slightly on the sharp side, and blowing down into the slot. This for me gives me my flugel sound. I once lent my flugel to someone, got it back, and was unhappy with my flugel sound, which seemed more trumpet-like than normal. I then realised that they had pulled my tuning bit out quite a way. A return to my usual position, and no longer having to lip up the pitch in order not to be flat, and my flugel sound returned. I'm however a player who has a pretty good sense of intonation, and rather than sounding off tune, will tend to subconsciously lip up or down to keep in tune. Lipping up does not work for me on flugel.
Have you tried pushing your tuning bit in and blowing down in the slot?
This approach works for me.
All the best
Lou |
Clarification. My sound history is a small, lean sound, not entirely that bright. I have heard so much brighter. My brighter sound on my flugelhorn using the 7 FL-M stems mostly to not using a felt mute like Grasso in the video. That, &
using a cell phone positioned 3' to the side make for a rather misleading comparison.
The Yamaha 11F4 is 16.46mm wide, very close to my 16.5mm Curry 7FL in width. (The 13 F4 is 16.66mm wide, & the 14F4 is 16.76mm wide). What separates the 11 from the others is a shallower trumpet style U shape & a trumpet sized 3.8mm throat. The others 13 & 14 F4 spec out about the same as Curry, with a 4.3mm throat & I suspect they might prove to be redundant (too close to the Curry FL
The issue about getting a trumpet style mouthpiece is (as you remember) I borrowed my keyboardist's Holton trumpet that has a Holton 7C mpc. On that my range was better, but more significantly, my ability to get from one register to another was easier. I have no idea what to expect from the 11F4: something to help build range & flexibility; something that gives an occasional change of timbre & can make my flugelhorn sound like dark cornet at times for novelty's sake.
The 7F4 might be too small, & the 13 & 14 F4s might be redundant & not as rich sounding as the Curry FL anyway. I am sure the rim of the 14F4 will feel the same width of my Wicks.
I played the Wicks 4FL yesterday & that's unquestionably the ideal sound for me.(I think the overall cup volume might be comparable to the overall 17.5mm Bach 1 trumpet moc. Since the consensus here that starting small & gradually go bigger is wrong headed, I should practice more on that Wicks.
Lip swelling I do perceive--no discussions of that in my day. Yes some days the swelling closes the aperture shut & impedes the production if high notes. I'm not sure what blowing into the slot means.
Thank
TC |
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bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | How can one account for the pain while playing the shallow Curry FL-M or Conn 7 CFL.? |
Pressure. Why are you pressing harder?
| Quote: | | Also, I did some playing along with the rwcording using my FL, & my FL was pretty bright compared to his. On my FL-M I was noticeably brighter than the FL, & in person demonstrations for musician frends certainly confirmed that the FL was more flugelhorn sounding than the FLM. |
I would say that he uses a bit of tension in his playing that makes his tone duller or darker. I can't remember. Have you recorded yourself with all of these combinations? If so, which did you like the best? Which has the best intonation? Those are my first two questions when I'm looking at evaluating a question of equipment. |
A felt mute & a less than audiophile quality cell phone positioned 3' to the side don't help matters. Why a felt mute? |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: |
Hi bassguy
Clarification. My sound history is a small, lean sound, not entirely that bright. I have heard so much brighter.
Thank you very much for the clarification.
My brighter sound on my flugelhorn using the 7 FL-M stems mostly to not using a felt mute like Grasso in the video. That, & using a cell phone positioned 3' to the side make for a rather misleading comparison.
Maybe. Obviously Michael Grasso doesn't play a FLM, so a direct comparison cannot be made. You however say that you sound brighter on the FL than him. Is it the felt mute, it is the position of the cell phone, or is it just differences in natural sound between players? I don't know, and I don't think it matters. All that matters is how you sound on the a mouthpiece.
The Yamaha 11F4 is 16.46mm wide, very close to my 16.5mm Curry 7FL in width. (The 13 F4 is 16.66mm wide, & the 14F4 is 16.76mm wide). What separates the 11 from the others is a shallower trumpet style U shape & a trumpet sized 3.8mm throat. The others 13 & 14 F4 spec out about the same as Curry, with a 4.3mm throat & I suspect they might prove to be redundant (too close to the Curry FL
Ok.
The issue about getting a trumpet style mouthpiece is (as you remember) I borrowed my keyboardist's Holton trumpet that has a Holton 7C mpc. On that my range was better, but more significantly, my ability to get from one register to another was easier. I have no idea what to expect from the 11F4: something to help build range & flexibility; something that gives an occasional change of timbre & can make my flugelhorn sound like dark cornet at times for novelty's sake.
Although the Yamaha 11F4 may be shallower and more U shaped, I wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near as shallow as a trumpet mouthpiece.
The 7F4 might be too small, & the 13 & 14 F4s might be redundant & not as rich sounding as the Curry FL anyway. I am sure the rim of the 14F4 will feel the same width of my Wicks.
I played the Wicks 4FL yesterday & that's unquestionably the ideal sound for me.(I think the overall cup volume might be comparable to the overall 17.5mm Bach 1 trumpet moc.
I would have thought that the overall cup volume of the Wick 4FL would still be quite a bit larger, owing its cup depth.
Since the consensus here that starting small & gradually go bigger is wrong headed, I should practice more on that Wicks.
I think that you pick one and stick with it.
Lip swelling I do perceive--no discussions of that in my day. Yes some days the swelling closes the aperture shut & impedes the production if high notes. I'm not sure what blowing into the slot means.
Am I actually blowing down into the slot, or am I simply blowing down towards the bottom of the cup. I don't know what I am doing, only that I feel that I blowing down in the slot. Maybe I am blowing down in the slot, since I didn't do it when someone had borrowed my flugel and left the tuning bit too far out, meaning that I was having to lip up. Maybe it is just a case of relaxing into the sound, which again I can't do unless I tune on the sharp side.
Basically, I think big sound and blow what I feel is down into it.
My suggestion is to tune a fraction sharp, think big sound and feel that you are blowing down into it. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but it is worth a try I believe.
Did you see that I had listened to Freddie Hubbard and Chuck Mangione for you?
Thank
TC
Best wishes
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | bassguy wrote: |
Hi bassguy
Clarification. My sound history is a small, lean sound, not entirely that bright. I have heard so much brighter.
Thank you very much for the clarification.
My brighter sound on my flugelhorn using the 7 FL-M stems mostly to not using a felt mute like Grasso in the video. That, & using a cell phone positioned 3' to the side make for a rather misleading comparison.
Maybe. Obviously Michael Grasso doesn't play a FLM, so a direct comparison cannot be made. You however say that you sound brighter on the FL than him. Is it the felt mute, it is the position of the cell phone, or is it just differences in natural sound between players? I don't know, and I don't think it matters. All that matters is how you sound on the a mouthpiece.
The Yamaha 11F4 is 16.46mm wide, very close to my 16.5mm Curry 7FL in width. (The 13 F4 is 16.66mm wide, & the 14F4 is 16.76mm wide). What separates the 11 from the others is a shallower trumpet style U shape & a trumpet sized 3.8mm throat. The others 13 & 14 F4 spec out about the same as Curry, with a 4.3mm throat & I suspect they might prove to be redundant (too close to the Curry FL
Ok.
The issue about getting a trumpet style mouthpiece is (as you remember) I borrowed my keyboardist's Holton trumpet that has a Holton 7C mpc. On that my range was better, but more significantly, my ability to get from one register to another was easier. I have no idea what to expect from the 11F4: something to help build range & flexibility; something that gives an occasional change of timbre & can make my flugelhorn sound like dark cornet at times for novelty's sake.
Although the Yamaha 11F4 may be shallower and more U shaped, I wouldn't expect it to be anywhere near as shallow as a trumpet mouthpiece.
The 7F4 might be too small, & the 13 & 14 F4s might be redundant & not as rich sounding as the Curry FL anyway. I am sure the rim of the 14F4 will feel the same width of my Wicks.
I played the Wicks 4FL yesterday & that's unquestionably the ideal sound for me.(I think the overall cup volume might be comparable to the overall 17.5mm Bach 1 trumpet moc.
I would have thought that the overall cup volume of the Wick 4FL would still be quite a bit larger, owing its cup depth.
Since the consensus here that starting small & gradually go bigger is wrong headed, I should practice more on that Wicks.
I think that you pick one and stick with it.
Lip swelling I do perceive--no discussions of that in my day. Yes some days the swelling closes the aperture shut & impedes the production if high notes. I'm not sure what blowing into the slot means.
Am I actually blowing down into the slot, or am I simply blowing down towards the bottom of the cup. I don't know what I am doing, only that I feel that I blowing down in the slot. Maybe I am blowing down in the slot, since I didn't do it when someone had borrowed my flugel and left the tuning bit too far out, meaning that I was having to lip up. Maybe it is just a case of relaxing into the sound, which again I can't do unless I tune on the sharp side.
Basically, I think big sound and blow what I feel is down into it.
My suggestion is to tune a fraction sharp, think big sound and feel that you are blowing down into it. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but it is worth a try I believe.
Did you see that I had listened to Freddie Hubbard and Chuck Mangione for you?
Thank
TC
Best wishes
Lou |
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I meant to write about my bright sound on a 7 FL. No more Curry FL-Ms in my mpc collection. My FL sound is much brighter than Grasso's., but relative to my other mouthpieces the FL is dark.
I read the Yamaha 11F4 is an actual trumpet mouthpiece with a small 3.8 mm throat that's been fitted to a flugelhorn shank. It's U cup might be a fairly deep for a trumpet, but there is an actual trumpet mouthpiece model counterpart to the 11F4.. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: |
Hi bassguy
I meant to write about my bright sound on a 7 FL.
No more Curry FL-Ms in my mpc collection. My FL sound is much brighter than Grasso's., but relative to my other mouthpieces the FL is dark.
Ok, thank you very much for the clarification.
I read the Yamaha 11F4 is an actual trumpet mouthpiece with a small 3.8 mm throat that's been fitted to a flugelhorn shank. It's U cup might be a fairly deep for a trumpet, but there is an actual trumpet mouthpiece model counterpart to the 11F4.
I'm not quite sure where you have read this. I see the following on the Yamaha website (please excuse that I haven't bothered to edit how it cuts and pastes:
Flugelhorn
Model No. Rim Inner Diameter (mm) Throat
(mm) Characteristics
FH-11F4 16.46 3.80 Medium inner rim diameter and unique “U” cup for extra endurance. Excellent attack. Easy for beginners.
Trumpet
Model No. Rim Inner Diameter (mm) Throat
(mm) Characteristics
TR-11A4 16.46 3.65 Medium rim diameter with a shallow cup for easy high notes. Ideal for piccolo trumpet and jazz idioms.
TR-11A5 16.38 3.65 Wide rim shallow cup with a slightly large back bore delivers a rich upper range with ease. Well-suited for piccolo trumpet.
TR-11B4 16.46 3.65 A somewhat shallow cup and medium rim for extra endurance. Brilliant tone. Suitable for D, Eb, and piccolo trumpets.
TR-11 16.32 3.72 Relatively large throat with a sharp shoulder. Easy to play over the entire range, with a fairly bright sound. Good for beginners.
TR-11C4 16.46 3.65 Clean bite and well-balanced rim for all-around playing. Standard model for beginners and advanced players.
I presume you are saying that the TR-11B4 and TR-11C4 are the trumpet counterparts to the FH-11F4.
The Yamaha website only explicitly states that the FH-7F4 has the same rim as the trumpet TR-7A4, and that the FH-16F4 and FH-17F4 have the same rim as the TR-16C4 and TR-17C4 respectively. It does not say that the FH-11F4 has the same rim as the TR-11B4 and TR-11C4, but the cup diameter being the same, suggests this.
However, although Yamaha say that the FH-11F4 has a U-shaped cup, they do not say it is a trumpet-cup on a flugel shank. I imagine that it will be around the depth of a Bach 7CFL (if you compare the Bach 7CFL to the Bach 3CFL on the Kanstul comparator, you will see that the 7CFL is quite a bit shallower, but that the 3CFL is more U-shaped) or Curry FLM, but according to Yamaha, with more of a U-shaped cup. You will know when the one you have ordered arrives, but if I had to bet on it, I would expect the depth of the Curry FLM but with a more U-shaped cup/the shape of the Bach 3CFL but with the depth of the Bach 7CFL. I will be very surprised if it is as shallow as the TR-11C4.
Best wishes
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | bassguy wrote: |
Hi bassguy
I meant to write about my bright sound on a 7 FL.
No more Curry FL-Ms in my mpc collection. My FL sound is much brighter than Grasso's., but relative to my other mouthpieces the FL is dark.
Ok, thank you very much for the clarification.
I read the Yamaha 11F4 is an actual trumpet mouthpiece with a small 3.8 mm throat that's been fitted to a flugelhorn shank. It's U cup might be a fairly deep for a trumpet, but there is an actual trumpet mouthpiece model counterpart to the 11F4.
I'm not quite sure where you have read this. I see the following on the Yamaha website (please excuse that I haven't bothered to edit how it cuts and pastes:
Flugelhorn
Model No. Rim Inner Diameter (mm) Throat
(mm) Characteristics
FH-11F4 16.46 3.80 Medium inner rim diameter and unique “U” cup for extra endurance. Excellent attack. Easy for beginners.
Trumpet
Model No. Rim Inner Diameter (mm) Throat
(mm) Characteristics
TR-11A4 16.46 3.65 Medium rim diameter with a shallow cup for easy high notes. Ideal for piccolo trumpet and jazz idioms.
TR-11A5 16.38 3.65 Wide rim shallow cup with a slightly large back bore delivers a rich upper range with ease. Well-suited for piccolo trumpet.
TR-11B4 16.46 3.65 A somewhat shallow cup and medium rim for extra endurance. Brilliant tone. Suitable for D, Eb, and piccolo trumpets.
TR-11 16.32 3.72 Relatively large throat with a sharp shoulder. Easy to play over the entire range, with a fairly bright sound. Good for beginners.
TR-11C4 16.46 3.65 Clean bite and well-balanced rim for all-around playing. Standard model for beginners and advanced players.
I presume you are saying that the TR-11B4 and TR-11C4 are the trumpet counterparts to the FH-11F4.
The Yamaha website only explicitly states that the FH-7F4 has the same rim as the trumpet TR-7A4, and that the FH-16F4 and FH-17F4 have the same rim as the TR-16C4 and TR-17C4 respectively. It does not say that the FH-11F4 has the same rim as the TR-11B4 and TR-11C4, but the cup diameter being the same, suggests this.
However, although Yamaha say that the FH-11F4 has a U-shaped cup, they do not say it is a trumpet-cup on a flugel shank. I imagine that it will be around the depth of a Bach 7CFL (if you compare the Bach 7CFL to the Bach 3CFL on the Kanstul comparator, you will see that the 7CFL is quite a bit shallower, but that the 3CFL is more U-shaped) or Curry FLM, but according to Yamaha, with more of a U-shaped cup. You will know when the one you have ordered arrives, but if I had to bet on it, I would expect the depth of the Curry FLM but with a more U-shaped cup/the shape of the Bach 3CFL but with the depth of the Bach 7CFL. I will be very surprised if it is as shallow as the TR-11C4.
Best wishes
Lou
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Lou, I got the 11F4 & the initial visual inspection left me very disappointed bit appeared deep enough to accommodate my little finger up to the base of the nail. Visually the cup appears to be less a U, more a V.
But.....I played it, & it does play more like a trumpet mouthpiece. More range & endurance. Most importantly, far less facial movement, to go from one register to another, just like I wxperienced when borowing my friends Holton, with it's 7C mouthpiece. Very encouraging.
The sound is still very flugelhornish. Not cornety. Yes, fairly bright, but with an additional deep resonance. IMO a much better sounding mouthpiece than the Curry FL-M., & much easier to play. I can play longer phrases without my whole face aching & forcing a rest. (This demonstrates that my embouchure & approach aren't creating my problems. I am a comeback player, but not a flugelhorn comeback player. Learning to play in a bigger instrument with a deep mouthpiece is a new skill)
Drawbacks? The rim makes it feel very small, like it's only 16-16.2 mm instead of 16.46. But if it works, that's good. If the narrow inner rim does present problems, then I will wish Yamaha made a whole family of these mouthpieces.
Using this mouthpiece I did hit a lot of airballs & I also had some difficulty with slotting while slurring. I suspect those issues will ameliorate as I continue playing it (only my first day). Again, the sound has a deep rich resonance (even though it's also a bit bright) & it could be my only mouthpiece for a while until I get super strong. Possible caveat? The small rim might not optimally fit or accommodate lip sweeling. We'll see. |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Using this mouthpiece I did hit a lot of airballs & I also had some difficulty with slotting while slurring. |
That sure sounds like it is too small of a diameter for you.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | Using this mouthpiece I did hit a lot of airballs & I also had some difficulty with slotting while slurring. |
That sure sounds like it is too small of a diameter for you. |
If I'm reading this thread correctly ( and I admit, I'm skimming over a lot if it....lots of words) he just got this mouthpiece.
And not only did he just get it, he's been experimenting and switching a lot. So I don't know if after such a short time I'd concede that a mouthpiece is too small, or big, or anything.
Too often and I've been guilty of this, we try a mouthpiece only for a day or two. Find it's not "perfect" and switch to so,thing else...then decide something's just not right...then switch to something else....etc etc
You really need a couple weeks to adjust, get past the honeymoon period to see if a piece works or not after ironing out all the bugs and knocking out the cobwebs etc.
Safaris are crazy....I'm glad I've given away or hid all my mouthpieces, rims, backbores, sleeves etc etc...drives ME crazy!! |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | get past the honeymoon period |
The definition of honeymoon period is that it's really good for a while but then not so good. Trying it and already having problems doesn't seem right to me.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm.....
I haven't re-read all of the posts and threads on this. However, as pointed out above there seems to have been a lot of switching mouthpieces on flugel in a search for something that feels good, plays easily, and sounds nice.
To all that, I'll make a couple of blanket statements. I don't know how much - if at all - they apply to you. I haven't heard you play, seen you play, I'm just a guy on the internet (one who teaches a fair amount of trumpet, brass, and band instruments in general, to be fair).
1. Switching is not conducive to growth. Consistency is.
My beginner trumpets all have 7C mouthpieces. I don't love the 7C, I doubt it's perfect for every one of them. However, at this stage of their development, I don't think it matters a whole lot. What matters is good air, embouchure, and practicing on a consistent basis.
I also play tennis. Much like on trumpet, I'm a little bit of an equipment junkie. When I bought my current racquet, I play tested at least 30 (if not more) over the course of several months. However, if I were only a beginner and had trouble just hitting consistently, it wouldn't really matter which racquet I had, as long as it was a decent one. The equipment wouldn't be a barrier to my improvement, my technique would be.
It never hurts to have a good mouthpiece. However, with your Currys and Wicks (though some would say that the Wick is NOT a good mouthpiece) and Yamahas, you have good mouthpieces - they were well designed and manufactured.
However, at this stage of your playing - it's far more likely that that part of the playing equation that is causing the most problems is not your horn or your mouthpieces - it's you. Don't feel bad, that's true of most trumpet players out there - a group that includes 5th graders, high schoolers, and even trumpet majors in college. Your horn doesn't change from day to day, and your mouthpiece doesn't either (unless you are playing a different one). However, WE are NOT the same every day. We are not robots. We can play things on a Thursday that we sometimes can't on a Monday or in the evening or the morning, and so forth.
So, pick a mouthpieces and stick with it. Stop having more variables that vary and leave just the one, for now - you. Play the same piece for a week, two weeks, even three weeks and see if you get better overall. Not am I better today than yesterday, but am I better in three weeks than I was before. Baseball statisticians would say that you can't tell much from a small sample size - and this is the same way. If things feel bad and aren't getting better in a few weeks - well, then it might be time to try a new variable in there and see if that works better.
2. Equipment does not solve technical or playing issues.
It might slightly improve something or worsen something, but for the most part - there is no magic in mouthpieces or horns. They are just hunks of metal and plumbing. You're the one supplying the air, sound, and notes.
It's easy to think that ... gee, if I only get a slighly smaller or deeper or flatter or thinner mouthpiece, then I'll play and sound better. Or, I need a smaller bore or a larger bore horn and it'll play better for me. And you might, a little bit. But, only a little. But, if you're not playing playing correctly, if your technique is problematic - then it matter little as to which mouthpiece or horn you're using. You'll end up with a drawer full of mouthpieces and you still won't play or sound any better.
Trumpet (or flugel) is hard. Good luck.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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bassguy
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | get past the honeymoon period |
The definition of honeymoon period is that it's really good for a while but then not so good. Trying it and already having problems doesn't seem right to me. |
I kept on playing today for 3 hours, well after my reply to Louise. Fewrer airballs, & little damn fatigue. I took the flugelhorn & mouthpiece to our combo's rehearsal, even though we deferred playing 'You & I again' (James Taylor) for our next program. I hit several high B-flats & a C in my guitarist shop. (This is the same shop in which I tried out the Curry FL-M & complained of its lean timbre). In the same shop the Yamaha dwfinately had a strong treble bite, but overall the timbre seemed to have less emphasis in the mids, and a deep, full resonance reminiscent of the wick4 FL, but not to that extent. I have written how the Wicks makes a small room vibrate; none of the Curry's do; the Yamaha actually does a bit. It sounded so much better in the Shop where we rehearse. My band mates' assesment is that it's very smooth sounding at low to moderate volume. When playing high & loud it opens up & gets brighter. My concern is when belting out high notes it gets "trumpety" sounding, my band mates say absolutely no way to confuse my sound with a teumpet--but what do they know. But I am pleased that in that same rehearsal environment it didn't come across as deficient in tone roundness like the 3 FL-M (I just sent back to ME). If I could exersize lots of control over dynamics this could be an expressive mouthpiece. I lightly legato tongued a scale figure Mezzo Piano culminating on a G above the staff & that sounded warm & smooth, according to my keyboardist
Next practice sessions I'll carefully test its slotting in harmonic slurs. (Haven't been practicing those much lately). Overall it's playable like my cornet back in the day. If it does price to be small, it will be a massive disappointment.
And yes, I apologize for documenting my impressions too quickly & impulsively. Maybe I'll acclimate well to this mouthpiece, but maybe its smallish feel will present problems . Probably should wait.
PS, you do know what this means right? My sound using this mouthpiece could be a little darker, & I can't help wondering if the added conicity of a smaller bore & rose brass bell could sound smoother. (That Dillon I ordered is waiting at a FedEx pickup facility in Palm Springs until 6pm tomorrow for pick up. If I do puck it up I can send it back after 7 days trial, but if I like it I'll but it & go deeper under. (It wouldn't be too bad if I could sell my Hawk. |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I kept on playing today for 3 hours, well after my reply to Louise. Fewrer airballs, & little damn fatigue. I took the flugelhorn & mouthpiece to our combo's rehearsal, even though we deferred playing 'You & I again' (James Taylor) for our next program. I hit several high B-flats & a C in my guitarist shop. (This is the same shop in which I tried out the Curry FL-M & complained of its lean timbre). In the same shop the Yamaha dwfinately had a strong treble bite, but overall the timbre seemed to have less emphasis in the mids, and a deep, full resonance reminiscent of the wick4 FL, but not to that extent. I have written how the Wicks makes a small room vibrate; none of the Curry's do; the Yamaha actually does a bit. It sounded so much better in the Shop where we rehearse. My band mates' assesment is that it's very smooth sounding at low to moderate volume. When playing high & loud it opens up & gets brighter. My concern is when belting out high notes it gets "trumpety" sounding, my band mates say absolutely no way to confuse my sound with a teumpet--but what do they know. But I am pleased that in that same rehearsal environment it didn't come across as deficient in tone roundness like the 3 FL-M (I just sent back to ME). If I could exersize lots of control over dynamics this could be an expressive mouthpiece. I lightly legato tongued a scale figure Mezzo Piano culminating on a G above the staff & that sounded warm & smooth, according to my keyboardist |
This sounds fantastic. Stop changing any equipment if you are getting this kind of response. Funny about the comment what do they know. I had my wife listening to me play several instruments after a gig we had Saturday. She had commented on the sound of some of our horns during the gig. I played a mellophone. She hated the tone. I played a large bore cornet. She loved that. I played my flugelhorn with the Curry FLM. She said it sounded just like the cornet. I hear plenty of differences. But if regular people don't, why are we working so hard? I think that the response, ease of play, slotting and ability to shape the tone during play might be more important than fine details of the sound itself.
There is so much positive going on with you now. The only change in the future if the mouthpiece really is too small would be to go to the Yamaha 13F4. But. It all sounds like it is going really well. Congratulations!!
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Benge.nut
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017
Posts: 695
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Me personally, I can't play differing mouthpieces with different rim sizes. I just can't. Lots of guys can....but I'm too sensitive to those changes.
I found a rim that works very good for the majority of my playing on my Bb, and have had it copied for my other pieces. This for me yields the most consistent ease of transition from piece to piece.
I've read through most of this thread, but I'm gonna be honest...not all of it. So many words....
But do you have a mouthpiece you like for your Bb work? If you do, I'd try and get a similar piece for flugel just to keep those factors the same.
Mark Curry made me a piece back in 2007 I've never switched from and I absolutely love it. I told him I'd like the rim copied and make a commercial flugelhorn cup and throats to fit my Yamaha. And what I got was the best sounding flugelhorn sound I've ever had, and I never want to change it.
It's pretty deep, big throat but still is fine in the upper register ( I don't think I've ever played above a D or Eb on my flug) and has a light fluffy sound, with out being to dark and doesn't sound like a cornet.
Good luck! |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: |
Hi bassguy
Lou, I got the 11F4 & the initial visual inspection left me very disappointed bit appeared deep enough to accommodate my little finger up to the base of the nail. Visually the cup appears to be less a U, more a V.
I understand.
But.....I played it, & it does play more like a trumpet mouthpiece. More range & endurance. Most importantly, far less facial movement, to go from one register to another, just like I wxperienced when borowing my friends Holton, with it's 7C mouthpiece. Very encouraging.
I am very pleased to hear that the initial results are very encouraging.
The sound is still very flugelhornish. Not cornety. Yes, fairly bright, but with an additional deep resonance. IMO a much better sounding mouthpiece than the Curry FL-M., & much easier to play.
I'm pleased to hear this.
I can play longer phrases without my whole face aching & forcing a rest. (This demonstrates that my embouchure & approach aren't creating my problems. I am a comeback player, but not a flugelhorn comeback player. Learning to play in a bigger instrument with a deep mouthpiece is a new skill)
Drawbacks? The rim makes it feel very small, like it's only 16-16.2 mm instead of 16.46. But if it works, that's good. If the narrow inner rim does present problems, then I will wish Yamaha made a whole family of these mouthpieces.
I understand.
Using this mouthpiece I did hit a lot of airballs & I also had some difficulty with slotting while slurring. I suspect those issues will ameliorate as I continue playing it (only my first day). Again, the sound has a deep rich resonance (even though it's also a bit bright) & it could be my only mouthpiece for a while until I get super strong. Possible caveat? The small rim might not optimally fit or accommodate lip sweeling. We'll see.
Yes, I think you need to play it a bit more to see whether the cup diameter is ultimately too small.
Best wishes
Lou |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | Hmm.....
I haven't re-read all of the posts and threads on this. However, as pointed out above there seems to have been a lot of switching mouthpieces on flugel in a search for something that feels good, plays easily, and sounds nice.
To all that, I'll make a couple of blanket statements. I don't know how much - if at all - they apply to you. I haven't heard you play, seen you play, I'm just a guy on the internet (one who teaches a fair amount of trumpet, brass, and band instruments in general, to be fair).
1. Switching is not conducive to growth. Consistency is.
Hi Crazy Finn
I couldn't agree more.
My beginner trumpets all have 7C mouthpieces. I don't love the 7C, I doubt it's perfect for every one of them. However, at this stage of their development, I don't think it matters a whole lot. What matters is good air, embouchure, and practicing on a consistent basis.
I again agree.
I also play tennis. Much like on trumpet, I'm a little bit of an equipment junkie. When I bought my current racquet, I play tested at least 30 (if not more) over the course of several months. However, if I were only a beginner and had trouble just hitting consistently, it wouldn't really matter which racquet I had, as long as it was a decent one. The equipment wouldn't be a barrier to my improvement, my technique would be.
I again agree. As well as convergence insufficiency, I was also born with an eye tracking condition (much to the consultant's surprise it doesn't cause me any trouble with reading or sight reading) which results in me being beyond bad at ball sports. If I manage to hit the ball at all, which is purely random, it is just as likely to be with my wrist or the handle of the racquet. Needless to say, it wouldn't matter at all which racquet I used.
All the best
Lou
It never hurts to have a good mouthpiece. However, with your Currys and Wicks (though some would say that the Wick is NOT a good mouthpiece) and Yamahas, you have good mouthpieces - they were well designed and manufactured.
However, at this stage of your playing - it's far more likely that that part of the playing equation that is causing the most problems is not your horn or your mouthpieces - it's you. Don't feel bad, that's true of most trumpet players out there - a group that includes 5th graders, high schoolers, and even trumpet majors in college. Your horn doesn't change from day to day, and your mouthpiece doesn't either (unless you are playing a different one). However, WE are NOT the same every day. We are not robots. We can play things on a Thursday that we sometimes can't on a Monday or in the evening or the morning, and so forth.
So, pick a mouthpieces and stick with it. Stop having more variables that vary and leave just the one, for now - you. Play the same piece for a week, two weeks, even three weeks and see if you get better overall. Not am I better today than yesterday, but am I better in three weeks than I was before. Baseball statisticians would say that you can't tell much from a small sample size - and this is the same way. If things feel bad and aren't getting better in a few weeks - well, then it might be time to try a new variable in there and see if that works better.
2. Equipment does not solve technical or playing issues.
It might slightly improve something or worsen something, but for the most part - there is no magic in mouthpieces or horns. They are just hunks of metal and plumbing. You're the one supplying the air, sound, and notes.
It's easy to think that ... gee, if I only get a slighly smaller or deeper or flatter or thinner mouthpiece, then I'll play and sound better. Or, I need a smaller bore or a larger bore horn and it'll play better for me. And you might, a little bit. But, only a little. But, if you're not playing playing correctly, if your technique is problematic - then it matter little as to which mouthpiece or horn you're using. You'll end up with a drawer full of mouthpieces and you still won't play or sound any better.
Trumpet (or flugel) is hard. Good luck. |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Congrats! You're playing better, on a Yamaha with a FL that has a standard/ Yamaha taper. Stick with that a while; only change if playing difficulties present themselves. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| bassguy wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | get past the honeymoon period |
The definition of honeymoon period is that it's really good for a while but then not so good. Trying it and already having problems doesn't seem right to me. |
I kept on playing today for 3 hours, well after my reply to Louise. Fewrer airballs, & little damn fatigue. I took the flugelhorn & mouthpiece to our combo's rehearsal, even though we deferred playing 'You & I again' (James Taylor) for our next program. I hit several high B-flats & a C in my guitarist shop. (This is the same shop in which I tried out the Curry FL-M & complained of its lean timbre). In the same shop the Yamaha dwfinately had a strong treble bite, but overall the timbre seemed to have less emphasis in the mids, and a deep, full resonance reminiscent of the wick4 FL, but not to that extent. I have written how the Wicks makes a small room vibrate; none of the Curry's do; the Yamaha actually does a bit. It sounded so much better in the Shop where we rehearse. My band mates' assesment is that it's very smooth sounding at low to moderate volume.
Hi bassguy
This is all sounding positive.
When playing high & loud it opens up & gets brighter. My concern is when belting out high notes it gets "trumpety" sounding,
Probably it is just the words that you have chosen, but to me, belting out high notes is not really conducive to flugel, and it liable to result in being trumpety sounding. Probably you aren't literally belting out high notes.
You mention the sound opening up and getting brighter. I'm not really sure about opening up, but in my opinion, the flugel does get brighter above the stave. All I can really suggest in this regard, is being confident that a high note will probably project sufficiently without needing to be played unnecessarily loud, and concentrating on maintaining as much as possible the sound which you have in the lower and middle registers.
my band mates say absolutely no way to confuse my sound with a teumpet--but what do they know.
This depends of course on how familiar they are with the sound of the trumpet and flugel.
But I am pleased that in that same rehearsal environment it didn't come across as deficient in tone roundness like the 3 FL-M (I just sent back to ME). If I could exersize lots of control over dynamics this could be an expressive mouthpiece. I lightly legato tongued a scale figure Mezzo Piano culminating on a G above the staff & that sounded warm & smooth, according to my keyboardist
This is again sounding positive.
Next practice sessions I'll carefully test its slotting in harmonic slurs. (Haven't been practicing those much lately). Overall it's playable like my cornet back in the day. If it does price to be small, it will be a massive disappointment.
I understand.
And yes, I apologize for documenting my impressions too quickly & impulsively. Maybe I'll acclimate well to this mouthpiece, but maybe its smallish feel will present problems . Probably should wait.
Yes, I think that you should wait.
PS, you do know what this means right? My sound using this mouthpiece could be a little darker, & I can't help wondering if the added conicity of a smaller bore & rose brass bell could sound smoother. (That Dillon I ordered is waiting at a FedEx pickup facility in Palm Springs until 6pm tomorrow for pick up. If I do puck it up I can send it back after 7 days trial, but if I like it I'll but it & go deeper under. (It wouldn't be too bad if I could sell my Hawk.
How to answer this? In my opinion, you could wonder for eternity. As Michael Grasso (Who I had not heard of until you mentioned him) more than adequately demonstrates, unless you are particularly listening to a direct comparison, what prevails is the natural sound, approach and style of the player. Since you are going to be the only flugel horn player and don't need to blend with anyone else, I'm not sure that it really matters if another mouthpiece/flugel could be smoother, darker etc. Even if it was, maybe it wouldn't be so good in another regard, and where/when would the experimentation end. There comes a time when you have to pick something, and stay with a consistent set-up.
Take care
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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