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Cheater Mouthpieces?


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CouvesDude
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Cheater Mouthpieces? Reply with quote

Sometimes when I am playing in a big band and have to play lead I use what most people consider a cheater mouthpiece. It is shallow and a smaller rim size than my normal 1 1/2 C. I know people don't like them becuase of diminished tone quality and smaller sound and certainly I have found this to be true in a normal register, but when I get above the high C my tone is bigger and more clear on the cheater piece than on my orchestral mouthpiece. Is this because my chops are still not properly developed or do other people find a simarlar situation too? Any comment on this would be a great help.
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siksay
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There really is no such thing as a cheater mouthpiece, use what makes the job easier.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The usual approach is to stay on the same rim size, but a smaller cup. If your tone is clearer on the smaller piece, you might advantages to going to a smaller I. D. for your orchestral playing too, but still on a deep cup.

How does your Bach bathtub compare to a Reeves 43? 43.5?
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2-5-1
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"cheater mouthpiece" is a term used by people who either can't play in the first place and believe that the mouthpiece is solely responsible for high range and/ or, high school students.

There is no such thing as a cheater mouthpiece. Play what gets the job done, (and what gets you called back!)
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Bruin
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Cheater Mouthpieces? Reply with quote

Ha! Well, then Bobby Shew also "cheats." In one of his youtube videos, you can see him switching mouthpieces during a song. Like the other guys said, do whatever you need to do to get the job done well and sound your best. I never gave this any thought before seeing Bobby do that, but it makes good sense to me if switching mouthpieces helps you accomplish what you want/need to accomplish in a song, don't you think?
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Last edited by Bruin on Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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CouvesDude
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In regards to using a same size rim but shallower cup I used to us a deep cup with the same size rim as my lead mouthpiece but the sound wasn't quite as good as the 1 1/2, but I do plan on getting a 1 1/2 D or F and see how that does. Thank you all for your comments this helps me a lot.
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Juergen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guilty of previously calling it a cheater mouthpiece. However, I think it's because the person who "played" had the worst tone imaginable but could squeak high notes and thought he was hot stuff.
I basically made the shallow piece my main piece because of being lead in jazz band and not playing trumpet in any standard bands (F. Horn). I was able to get it to work for the most part tone wise. However, tounging on the low notes, G in the staff and lower, was very bad and I still haven't found away around that. However tounging is exellent really high. Anyways now I am adding my medium piece back in because the tone is too bright for lower parts which I figure I will be playing as a Freshmen in college marching band and possibly DCI.

You can make it work if you try.
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2-5-1 wrote:
"cheater mouthpiece" is a term used by people who either can't play in the first place and believe that the mouthpiece is solely responsible for high range and/ or, high school students.

right on.

Unless there's a hidden double standard here, I suppose when I switch from my usual Greg Black / Warburton 5 ES with tweaks to my Warburton 2 MD for orchestra or chamber work that I'm using a cheater mouthpiece.

yeah. it works both ways, fellas.

Yet there are times when I'll play said Black / Warburton 5 ES in chamber or orchestra situations and no one can tell a difference. Without a doubt you use the right tool for the job, but the right player can make anything work in any situation.
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davtpt
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Cheater mpcs Reply with quote

Main main & only mpc is a 17S Giardinelli, I do latin music now, concert band,big band, etc is not around...
I make about $100-$150 a gig & I play once in a blue moon, so whatever gets the job done, if the public is happy, & if YOU'RE happy then play whatever....
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Young Man with a Horn
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CouvesDude,

It sounds to me like you're being very sensible in choosing a smaller mouthpiece for your big band playing. I think there are several thousand other trumpeters that would do exactly the same thing!

It is important to use the right tools for the job. I play in a regular big band but would switch to using a bigger mouthpiece in an orchestral situation. Have faith in your decision and remember the best teacher is yourself.

Good luck!
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trumpetninja
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually play my 1.5c on everything, but I do have a shallow Schilke piece that I use for the few times I play lead. I think I might try a 1.5 D or E as i feel really comfortable with the 1.5c rim. I don't like that I have to adjust my embouchure just to get a fat sound in the mid register on the Schilke.

CouvesDude, I think if you feel really comfortable on your 1.5c, as I do, then you should try shallower 1.5's. it sounds like a good idea.

Peace,
E
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried to play lead on a wide, very shallow mouthpiece before, and part of the way into the gig, my lips swelled just enough to bottom out in it. Everyone's different, but I have better success with a more narrow cup and semi-shallow piece for lead. That same general width with a pretty deep cup works great for everything else.
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BobList
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Original poster, and others: " High range but with a bad tone ".

Please tell me what a "good" tone is.

Please tell me why using a smaller/shallower piece for big band lead is cheating, and while you are at it........

Please tell me why using a Bach mega-toilet bowl .695" with a 22 throat is the tool for a dark sound in symphonic pieces, and why that's not a cheater for THAT type of music.

Please tell me why Bill Chase was just a cheatin' no chops wannabe by using a cheater piece. If he used a Bach Mega bowl, and just did the proper exercises instead of just screaming high notes all day, his range and sound would have developed, ehh?

Please don't let your buddies accuse you of using a cheater piece. They are just jealous because the range they possess is inadequate for lead trumpet, or DCI.

A BEAUTIFUL FULL SOUND can be made on any piece, as long as it fits you.

Go here: http://www.jmb-music.com/sounds.html
Listen to Profile of a Trumpet player.
Get back to me, and tell me what size/type of mouthpiece he is using, based on what you hear, mmmmkay?
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juergen wrote:
adding my medium piece back in because the tone is too bright for lower parts which I figure I will be playing as a Freshmen in college marching band and possibly DCI.


I think that's going the wrong direction for the music, but you can make that work, too.
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Juergen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Juergen wrote:
adding my medium piece back in because the tone is too bright for lower parts which I figure I will be playing as a Freshmen in college marching band and possibly DCI.


I think that's going the wrong direction for the music, but you can make that work, too.


Should I stay shallow? I have been told that some bands force you to use pieces around the 3C size. I'm not sure if I'll have to. Now that I think of it my tounging hasn't really cleaned up on the medium piece but I figured that was lack of practice on that piece.
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using the right tool for the job isn't cheating.
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qcm
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Ortiz wrote:
Using the right tool for the job isn't cheating.


Yep, you got that right.

And if someone DOES call it a cheater mouthpiece, they're probably just jealous because they couldn't hit those notes to begin with - cheater mouthpiece or no cheater mouthpiece.

-Dave
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BuckTrump
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CouvesDude wrote:
In regards to using a same size rim but shallower cup I used to us a deep cup with the same size rim as my lead mouthpiece but the sound wasn't quite as good as the 1 1/2, but I do plan on getting a 1 1/2 D or F and see how that does. Thank you all for your comments this helps me a lot.


Might I suggest ordering the Bach 3F then?

I'm currently using the "equivalent feel of a 1.25" from HammondDesign for my all-around work and sense that the Bach 3F feels a little bit wider on the lips (the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator might be a good to reference).

The 3F is rather shallow (and I think the only F-series made by Bach), but with the wider Inner Diameter - it gives my lips some space to swell without bottoming out. Also, the blow doesn't seem quite so stuffy for me as the E-series (FYI: the F-series and D-series have the same backbore).

This mouthpiece was a giant step in the right direction for me in my lead playing (and I am by no means a "natural" lead player).

I've been thrilled with this mouthpiece and have not had any real troubles switching back-and-forth.


Best of Luck!

Ben
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I switch from my usual Greg Black / Warburton 5 ES with tweaks to my Warburton 2 MD for orchestra or chamber work"

That's quite a change, how do you work both into your practice routine?
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juergen wrote:

Should I stay shallow? I have been told that some bands force you to use pieces around the 3C size. I'm not sure if I'll have to. Now that I think of it my tounging hasn't really cleaned up on the medium piece but I figured that was lack of practice on that piece.


Any "band" that forces you to use a 3C size mouthpiece should be avoided like the plague.
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