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Cheater Mouthpieces?


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Solar Bell
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump READ THIS AGAIN
ANd the sounds clips of John Blount are beautiful!
BobList wrote:
Original poster, and others: " High range but with a bad tone ".

Please tell me what a "good" tone is.

Please tell me why using a smaller/shallower piece for big band lead is cheating, and while you are at it........

Please tell me why using a Bach mega-toilet bowl .695" with a 22 throat is the tool for a dark sound in symphonic pieces, and why that's not a cheater for THAT type of music.

Please tell me why Bill Chase was just a cheatin' no chops wannabe by using a cheater piece. If he used a Bach Mega bowl, and just did the proper exercises instead of just screaming high notes all day, his range and sound would have developed, ehh?

Please don't let your buddies accuse you of using a cheater piece. They are just jealous because the range they possess is inadequate for lead trumpet, or DCI.

A BEAUTIFUL FULL SOUND can be made on any piece, as long as it fits you.

Go here: http://www.jmb-music.com/sounds.html
Listen to Profile of a Trumpet player.
Get back to me, and tell me what size/type of mouthpiece he is using, based on what you hear, mmmmkay?


-cw-
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markchuvala
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been told that my mouthpiece is a cheater piece by other trumpeters...and my response is always to take out my mouthpiece, give it to the guy and say "here ya go....cheat"

Usually they can't even get a sound out.

To echo what others have said in this thread, use the piece that gets the job done as easy as possible. Being consistent between pieces is the key, having the same rim size on different mouthpieces has seemed to be the easiest way to transition between different pieces.

That being said you can be playing on too small of a piece, if you chip a lot of attacks, have intonation issues on the piece, pinch, or the sound "shuts off" after a certain point.

Learning to use an efficient/smaller set up takes time and patience.

Mark
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Still Trying
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a great high range. I admit it. My playing range is only up to E above high C. But "back in the day", when I was in college (early 60's) I was taught what was considered wisdom for the day. I was taught to find one mouthpiece and stick to it for everything. The theory was that switching back and forth on mouthpieces would totally confuse your poor embouchure and generally just screw up your playing. I also settled on a 1 1/2C Bach as an all around piece and played it for years. That's one reason (I think) that my range leveled out where it did.

Then I stopped playing for about 25 years and started back about 5 years ago. When I started back, I found the internet and discovered all the posting people do about trumpet playing here. I also discovered conventional wisdom seemed to have evolved while I was away. Now trumpet players don't think twice about changing mouthpieces. So I decided to try it. Now I'm a firm believer in playing whatever makes the job easier. I wish I had done this years ago.

You may find as I have that changing mouthpieces doesn't increase your range, it just makes it easier to play at the top of your range with better tone quality, control, and endurance. But I also change mouthpieces to obtain the sound I want also even in situations where range and endurance are not issues. I guess some would consider that "cheating". At one time I would have thought it was just stupid. But now I'm wondering why I wasn't smart enough to figure it out a long time ago.

I also have trouble playing a mouthpiece that is too shallow (for me). I bottom out on shallow pieces easily. But when playing high (for me) a medium shallow piece still beats the heck out of the "largest bucket" I can find. I also find playing a mouthpiece with a tighter back bore makes the high notes easier. For what it's worth. I don't think I've ever posted on this forum before. Never felt I belonged here with all the players on this site that have a real high range.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

siksay wrote:
There really is no such thing as a cheater mouthpiece, use what makes the job easier.


Exactly. Use the smallest mouthpiece you can use that gives you the sound you desire - it will increase your endurance and quite probably your range, too. Anyone who puts too much stock into the number of make of a mouthpiece has his head up his posterior.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikeytrpt wrote:
Juergen wrote:

Should I stay shallow? I have been told that some bands force you to use pieces around the 3C size. I'm not sure if I'll have to. Now that I think of it my tounging hasn't really cleaned up on the medium piece but I figured that was lack of practice on that piece.


Any "band" that forces you to use a 3C size mouthpiece should be avoided like the plague.


In all fairness, some of the best HS "bands" in the country have requirements, specific or unspoken, that fall somewhere along these lines. Who are they? Just look at the lists of various national honor band competitions, there will be a fair number in the top rankings. I'm not saying it's a good thing (not at all!), just that some directors have tremendous success with this strategy...
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And some band directors have absolutely ruined young trumpet players by forcing them to play a mouthpiece that is not right for them or that they were not ready for.

Students have come in to lessons and said they HAVE to play a 14A4a if they want to play in jazz band. Conversely, students have come in saying they HAVE to play a 1 1/2 if they want to be in wind ensemble or orchestra.

The pisser comes from that they all were doing very well on their (generally) 3C to 7C-range pieces and there was no need for them to change. But to keep their band grade up, what were they to do? These were radical changes that they were not ready to cope with.

In their defense, most of those idiot band directors were not trumpet majors in college and had only what - the obligatory 6 weeks of trumpet in Brass Methods class, which then made them "experts" in trumpetology. But would they listen to an experienced private teacher?

Sometimes I wish there were no markings at all on mouthpieces so that people would not be able to see what a guy was playing - all judgements would come purely from the sound.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard to argue with the monster from NYC! Unfortunately, however, some of the directors in this area who have mouthpiece requirements, and who have won many, many national and international competitions are trumpet players, and did major in trumpet in college. Screwy, eh? And yes, many of their top players do mess up their chops and quit playing...
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will admit that I'm unfamiliar with much of the high school band scene in the NY area. The few HS wind & jazz ensemble festivals that I've adjudicated in NJ have shown me that there are some amazing school music programs, many who bring two absolutely smokin' jazz bands or solid wind ensembles to the festivals and it's a joy to sit and listen and comment.

I don't know any details as to band director / student equipment stipulations.

But my long time in SoCal, and that entire marching band scene and all the wrong ideas that get ingrained in student's heads...oy vey!!

Nothing can replace a solid knowledge of basic trumpet fundamentals in students so that, if the situation comes up where their BD requires them to change pieces and holds their grade over their heads, that they'll be able to adapt with hopefully produce the desired results and ideally a greater love and appreciation of live music.
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Juergen
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My band director in High School considered getting 6A4a's for everyone in Marching Band but never did. He wanted to beef up our trumpet volume, he's a trumpet player so I don't think he was going to force us to play on it. No real point to the story sorry.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are lots of "cheater" mouthpieces out there - mouthpieces that will cheat you out of a career as a professional trumpet player.

Don't fall for gimmicks.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"But my long time in SoCal, and that entire marching band scene and all the wrong ideas that get ingrained in student's heads"

Wayne sure cleaned up nice after his time in Drum/Bugle Corps...
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nbotts
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only use cheater mouthpieces.
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jjohnson
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If by cheating you mean using a mouthpiece that will deliver the correct sound for the job while helping to maintain a high level of comfort, then I would be the biggest cheater around. Makes me wonder what else I've got up this sleeve of mine.
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Scorpion
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikeytrpt wrote:
Juergen wrote:

Should I stay shallow? I have been told that some bands force you to use pieces around the 3C size. I'm not sure if I'll have to. Now that I think of it my tounging hasn't really cleaned up on the medium piece but I figured that was lack of practice on that piece.


Any "band" that forces you to use a 3C size mouthpiece should be avoided like the plague.


yeah its a slippery slope. Today its 3C's, tomorrow its wedding dresses and live cod.
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjohnson wrote:
If by cheating you mean using a mouthpiece that will deliver the correct sound for the job while helping to maintain a high level of comfort, then I would be the biggest cheater around.

Right on! Kinda sums it all up, don't it?

The balance of the right piece for the job and being comfortable while playing is a never-ending search for some.
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
jjohnson wrote:
If by cheating you mean using a mouthpiece that will deliver the correct sound for the job while helping to maintain a high level of comfort, then I would be the biggest cheater around.

Right on! Kinda sums it all up, don't it?

The balance of the right piece for the job and being comfortable while playing is a never-ending search for some.


trpthrld, could you tell us how you practice on your two different pieces? The Warburton 5 and 2 are very far appart, I use a Mt. Vernon 3 rim and a Reeves 43 but they are much closer. I'd be interested in how you work them into your routine.
Thanks!
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trpthrld
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, my apologies for a typo - it's not a 2, it's a 3. And they're only far apart if you think of them being far apart.

Too much analysis = LOTS of paralysis.

For me it's no big deal. Just put it in the horn, adjust the tuning slide as needed & blow. Schlossberg, Clarkes, etudes, excerpts, whatever - ya just play. I don't make a big deal out of it, I just do it.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a variation on Cat Anderson's 20 min 'G' exercise with WW long tone CD. 8 Measures on, 2 off. I play a Pete Candoli piece for lead, and have his rims on all my other pieces. They are very small diameters. I can play extremely powerfully in a big band or rock band and have never had the range, power, and endurance I do now. I'm not cheating, just being efficient. Lookng forward to trying my Parduba 0's when they come. Smallest diameter mouthpieces I've ever heard of. All the best, Lex.
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ALLCHOPS
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG! I've been cheating and working my entire life...

LM-93s - www.loudmouthpieces.com

Shallowest piece I've ever used. Fatest sound I've ever had!

TG
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DCB1
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
siksay wrote:
There really is no such thing as a cheater mouthpiece, use what makes the job easier.


Exactly. Use the smallest mouthpiece you can use that gives you the sound you desire - it will increase your endurance and quite probably your range, too. Anyone who puts too much stock into the number of make of a mouthpiece has his head up his posterior.


AMEN to that!

Don't get caught in the "you need this to play this" syndrome.

Peace
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