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Annie
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 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I'm going to say something from the other side of the fence here...I think a good trumpet player will sound good on any mouthpiece given to him/her. In the end, it doesn't really matter. If you're really good, you'll scream on a 1 1/2.
I only stick with one mouthpiece because I feel that in knowing my mouthpiece inside and out, and not switching, that I am more able to change the sound of my instrument at will without changing the mouthpiece. I can switch my tone/playing style from light to dark, classical to jazz, without the switch. That comes from having had my equipment for a while know and internally understanding every aspect.
I think those of us that sometimes call it a 'cheater' mouthpiece to switch to the tiny, shallow cups because the person who is switching doesn't seem to want to actually practice and gain the strength/stamina to play highly efficient and well in all the ranges. Don't forget, the general rule is that when a person switches to a shallow mouthpiece, suddenly the low range goes to pot. But, if a person sticks with a mouthpiece that works well for him/her, and WORKS on the range, the player will have a broader range to play with and utilize in whatever way seen fit. Of course, if you're just a lead player and have no use for anything below a mid-staff G, more power to you - But I have played charts that require lead to go to a below the staff C to a C above the staff and beyond. Ya gotta sound good everywhere as a lead player, not just the screaming stuff.
But, on the other side, if it really does help you to switch, go ahead and switch. It really does work for some. I happen to be one of the people switching does not work well for because I am highly adapted to my own equipment, and find no loss in using the same piece every time. I, at this point, find it to be a plus to stay on the same piece because I have ample use of a range that runs from G below the staff to D/E above the staff. I'm higher when I'm dedicated and working on it, but I just moved so I'm a touch out of shape from the past summer's fun of finding a job & moving. To the practice room!
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~Annie
*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.* |
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Odneal's Inferno
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Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 424
Location: Houston (Baytown), Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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A legend in the trumpet world told me ,
" It is what comes out of the end of the horn that counts" ...... my answer would be
....never mind .............
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KPC517
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Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Syracuse, New York
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I'm gonna stir up some stuff. Trumpet players are a dime a dozen. What pays the bills? If I had a computer that would do 50% of the work, I'd buy two! Let me have it! I'm ready!
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Kevin Burns
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| trpthrld wrote: |
Sometimes I wish there were no markings at all on mouthpieces so that people would not be able to see what a guy was playing - all judgements would come purely from the sound. |
This is the best response on this topic that I have seen!
Regards,
Kevin |
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trpthrld
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Fishman
Regular Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 32
Location: West PA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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First and to the original topic of this thread , I don't believe there are cheater mpcs, just players who play on shallow mpcs for the upper register & never work on the middle and the lower registers. I know when I was younger, I wrongly thought that my upper register was all that I needed to get by on trumpet. I only worked on it until the day that I realized that my middle register was bad and my lower register was worse. With too many young players doing that, I think the term cheater mpc got its birth blaming the mpc instead of the screaming obsessed player.
| trpthrld wrote: | | And some band directors have absolutely ruined young trumpet players by forcing them to play a mouthpiece that is not right for them or that they were not ready for. |
I spent my second year in college as music major then back to being a science geek, but college music profs can be equipment natzis that can rival any high school director from my experience.
Between my horn instructor, jazz band goof who was a goof to the extreme with having a big band size ensemble play softest jazz written for small combos 90% of time, and symphony director; they had me playing three different mpcs. Make it worse; this was for bass trombone which never had nearly as many different choices as trumpet, especially in early 90s compared to now. Oh yeah, none of 3 mpcs was the largest mpc that Schilke made for bass trombone and that I had played on for 4+ years on, since they all wanted different bachs that are very different from Schilke bass trombone mpcs.
They made me pick a horn as my primary horn which is understandable. I picked bass trombone out of economic necessity, since I had a good Holton bass trombone and couldn't afford either the Schilke or the Bach Strad that they said that I had to have with the trumpet. However, I was given chance to play trumpet in some groups.
Then with marching band, pep band, and a student run jazz combo, they tried to have me change to C cup mpc from my Schilke 14A4A with my playing was too bright and powerful for those groups. Too powerful for marching band and playing at basketball games where I played 1st trumpet high parts, give me a break. Funny thing was when I was a zoology major freshman playing trumpet for marching band & pep band and bass trombone for their 2nd symphony; they recruited me to change majors as primarily a trumpet player due to my upper register.
With music profs & especially instrument instructors often having god like powers that can make or break music majors, I went with it on trombone. Thankfully, I told them basically to stick it with their trumpet mpc demands, since I didn't experience the 18 months that it took me to get back from what they did to me as a trombonist after I went back to the biology department and started playing with non school groups.
All that said it all worked out for me. I was better suited in science, plus I learned some strong fundamentals and music theory that have made me better a player. Plus, I enjoyed playing with crazy cats and had way too much fun being amateur player that got little more than gas money sometimes for several years after leaving the music department.
Changing mpcs can be bad and good, but being forced too will almost always just screw you up. Over time, I have taken some good advice on mpc and other equipment, but only you can know if a change is working for you after a time of experimentation.
Now, I am in a definite experimental mode being a comeback player, yet I want to find main mpcs with each horn for jazz and other non classical music. I have got a couple of more so called legit style local community groups wanting me to play with them when I feel that I am ready. I never played much classical music on trumpet before, so I think I will just find a 2nd mpc with the same rim, a similar cup dia, and the usual deeper cup for that. This 2nd mpc will correspond with my 1st mpc that I am looking for now. |
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Annie
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Fishman wrote: | | With music profs & especially instrument instructors often having god like powers that can make or break music majors, I went with it on trombone. Thankfully, I told them basically to stick it with their trumpet mpc demands, since I didn't experience the 18 months that it took me to get back from what they did to me as a trombonist after I went back to the biology department and started playing with non school groups. |
I was lucky my three trumpet teachers (my school did at one point have a very large swinging door when it came to several types of music professors - one time we had like three sax teachers in the span of 1 1/2 years - I had three trumpet teachers within five years...thank goodness I don't play saxophone!). None of my trumpet teachers forced any equipment change on me, luckily. But I've heard horror stories about teachers even refusing to work with a student until not only the right equipment was to be had, but the TEETH had to be worked on and be correct! I think that one was a trombone teacher from Duquesne - I cannot remember his name at the moment.
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*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.* |
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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You just need to get the right diameter to fit your embouchure and the way you are using your aperture. This could be anywhere from a Bach 1, to smaller than a Bach 20. Then, you get several underparts of different depths, for both your trumpet and flugel to fit the style of music you're playing. This is how many freelance pros I know do it....Efficiency is the name of the game! All the best, Lex.
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Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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skootchy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Just a slight observation about shallow mouthpieces; they are not all the same. Some lead pieces use a high alpha angle and others do not, yet they both appear to be shallow wide rim mouthpieces. If you don't understand what makes a mouthpiece tick you may have a problem. Some of the previous posters mentioned some problems they had with a lead piece like; bottoming out, lip swelling, not being able to go below a certain note or articulate in mid and low range. Some people can play those high alpha angle pieces and some can't. Some other manufacturers have totally different approaches to screamer models like the Wick screamer model. It virtually has no throat and some high compression guys love it... I can't get a sound out of it! So remember that not all screamers are alike. You can have a lead piece that works for you in all registers. Don't think that because your buddy uses xyz brand it will work for you and then when you find out that it doesn't just give up. Try a lower Alpha angle, it may work for you.
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DCB1
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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The high alpha angle can be a hard thing for players to deal with. I can play on them with no problems... but still prefer a small diameter mouthpiece. The Curry 600 series has a low alpha angle so it should be playable for most players.
Peace
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Still Trying
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
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Location: Keller, TX
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Annie wrote:
"I think those of us that sometimes call it a 'cheater' mouthpiece to switch to the tiny, shallow cups because the person who is switching doesn't seem to want to actually practice and gain the strength/stamina to play highly efficient and well in all the ranges. Don't forget, the general rule is that when a person switches to a shallow mouthpiece, suddenly the low range goes to pot. But, if a person sticks with a mouthpiece that works well for him/her, and WORKS on the range, the player will have a broader range to play with and utilize in whatever way seen fit. Of course, if you're just a lead player and have no use for anything below a mid-staff G, more power to you - But I have played charts that require lead to go to a below the staff C to a C above the staff and beyond. Ya gotta sound good everywhere as a lead player, not just the screaming stuff."
Annie,
I think you are correct in your assessment concerning players, who are genuinely trying to "cheat" by finding a mouthpiece that will compensate for their lack of development. And I also agree to an extent with your position about being so familiar with one mouthpiece that you can make it do whatever the music requires. I was taught that way years ago. When I was in school, I was taught that it was absolutely detrimental to switch mouthpieces. I played everything from symphony to rock and roll on a Bach 1 1/2 C. But all playing situations aren't always the same. And sometimes switching mouthpieces genuinely helps a player perform better. In my own case, I spend time practicing on any and all the mouthpieces I might consider as alternatives to my favorite piece. I test them to see how comfortable it is to switch from one to the other, what they sound like in the staff and below, and how they affect my tone. I don't use alternate mouthpieces with which I cannot play my full range. In other words I don't lose my middle and lower range if I switch to a mouthpiece that gives me a brighter sound of that gives me a little edge in endurance and range. But I guess I also should confess that I can't play a really shallow cup worth a flip. I could, if I had to, use any of my pieces for anything I happen to be playing. Nevertheless, I practice with the three or four pieces that I use regularly to the point that I can't always tell which piece I'm using unless I look at it. (Switching between trumpet mouthpieces can't be as difficult as switching between a trumpet mouthpiece and a trombone, and I know folks that do that all the time).
But there's few things as personal as a player's mouthpiece. I don't consider what I do to be cheating. I consider it to be smart. It works for me. But if it doesn't work for someone else, that's just another proof that what works for one, doesn't work for all.
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Yamahaguy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Annie wrote: | | because the person who is switching doesn't seem to want to actually practice and gain the strength/stamina to play highly efficient and well in all the ranges. |
And no mouthpiece on the planet can help this situation... |
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Annie
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Posts: 1105
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Still Trying wrote: |
But there's few things as personal as a player's mouthpiece. I don't consider what I do to be cheating. I consider it to be smart. It works for me. But if it doesn't work for someone else, that's just another proof that what works for one, doesn't work for all. |
I think that's a smart thing to do as well! My main point was what you had mentioned, the fact that a lot of people try switching mouthpieces just to get the range out of them - not necessarily as a tool like how you use them.
That is pretty neat, the way you practice with all of them - I may find that I'll need to do something similar in the future just like you're doing (I already switch back and forth between trumpet and flugel when I practice so I can get equal ability/range/feel on both).
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~Annie
*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.* |
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Juergen
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Annie wrote: | | Still Trying wrote: |
But there's few things as personal as a player's mouthpiece. I don't consider what I do to be cheating. I consider it to be smart. It works for me. But if it doesn't work for someone else, that's just another proof that what works for one, doesn't work for all. |
I think that's a smart thing to do as well! My main point was what you had mentioned, the fact that a lot of people try switching mouthpieces just to get the range out of them - not necessarily as a tool like how you use them.
That is pretty neat, the way you practice with all of them - I may find that I'll need to do something similar in the future just like you're doing (I already switch back and forth between trumpet and flugel when I practice so I can get equal ability/range/feel on both). |
Many people on TH are against switching pieces frequently but I think if you practice each equally you will be fine. People can play two brass instruments so why not two different mouthpieces. Anyways 1 is better than switching between 2 but i don't think many ever find that 1 all around piece for them.
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timoshev
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Posts: 96
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Now that playing on more than one m/p to suit the job is acceptable, here's a question for the symphonic pro's: Do you ever switch m/p's within a piece or between movements, where a lot of high stuff appears only in places? I'll probably never get to play the Mahler or Strauss stuff that is so high and is so exciting to listen to, but if it were my gig, I'm thinking that a little help from the m/p might be a Good Thing. |
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Juergen
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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I decided to play my deep piece today after I finished working on everything I wanted to with the other. I noticed my range and endurance was instantly significantly reduced. This was my main piece for auditions and High School festivals (Districts, Regionals) so endurance was definately there and range was good because one piece went to a high Eb and I was able to get a squeaky DHC every once and a while.
So basically from my experiance larger mouthpieces require more strength and "cheaters" require less to play the same notes.
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gio trumpeter
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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when i was a freshmen in high school, our band director made the whole trumpet section use a 3c... which i never made the switch... made him a little pissed 
are you set as the 1 1/2 being your "regular" piece? maybe you should find a median and try to find a more "shallow" (i only use the word cause i dont know what else to use) mouthpiece that maybe you can play lead with and everything else... try as many mouthpieces as you can! there is always room for improvement on with MP you use. i havent tried any new mouthpieces in 2 years because i'm happy so far with what i'm using... i'm sure this wont be the last mouthpiece i use. |
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trumpet8va
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Joined: 21 Jan 2004
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Location: La Mirada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ha!!! A cheater mouthpiece?? What will they think of next?? I don't think that "cheater" mouthpieces help you play higher, but rather aids you in projecting the range that you already have. I've had students buy smaller pieces and their range would improve for a while, but after a week or so, their range would go back down to where they were comfortable. Maybe get a piece that has smaller cup depth and keep the same rim...and get a hold of the Caruso routine. Just my two cents.
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trumpet8va
Regular Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
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Location: La Mirada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Ha!!! A cheater mouthpiece?? What will they think of next?? I don't think that "cheater" mouthpieces help you play higher, but rather aids you in projecting the range that you already have. I've had students buy smaller pieces and their range would improve for a while, but after a week or so, their range would go back down to where they were comfortable. Maybe get a piece that has smaller cup depth and keep the same rim...and get a hold of the Caruso routine. Just my two cents.
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Bach 72*/43
yamaha C
Leblanc flugel
schilke p5-4
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bach 3c mp
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JakeUND
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Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 589
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Annie wrote: | I guess I'm going to say something from the other side of the fence here...I think a good trumpet player will sound good on any mouthpiece given to him/her. In the end, it doesn't really matter. If you're really good, you'll scream on a 1 1/2.
I only stick with one mouthpiece because I feel that in knowing my mouthpiece inside and out, and not switching, that I am more able to change the sound of my instrument at will without changing the mouthpiece. I can switch my tone/playing style from light to dark, classical to jazz, without the switch. That comes from having had my equipment for a while know and internally understanding every aspect.
I think those of us that sometimes call it a 'cheater' mouthpiece to switch to the tiny, shallow cups because the person who is switching doesn't seem to want to actually practice and gain the strength/stamina to play highly efficient and well in all the ranges. Don't forget, the general rule is that when a person switches to a shallow mouthpiece, suddenly the low range goes to pot. But, if a person sticks with a mouthpiece that works well for him/her, and WORKS on the range, the player will have a broader range to play with and utilize in whatever way seen fit. Of course, if you're just a lead player and have no use for anything below a mid-staff G, more power to you - But I have played charts that require lead to go to a below the staff C to a C above the staff and beyond. Ya gotta sound good everywhere as a lead player, not just the screaming stuff.
But, on the other side, if it really does help you to switch, go ahead and switch. It really does work for some. I happen to be one of the people switching does not work well for because I am highly adapted to my own equipment, and find no loss in using the same piece every time. I, at this point, find it to be a plus to stay on the same piece because I have ample use of a range that runs from G below the staff to D/E above the staff. I'm higher when I'm dedicated and working on it, but I just moved so I'm a touch out of shape from the past summer's fun of finding a job & moving. To the practice room! |
Playing a shallow piece doesn't make your low register go bad. Just as you said you should practice on one average piece to gain a high register I can practice on a shallower piece to gain a lower register. I can play up to Double A on both my Marcinkiewicz E10 and on my Bach 3C. The tone is the only difference. The E10 cuts better so I don't end up blowing my head off the whole time. People using smaller pieces have to put in just as much work as someone using a larger piece does. Some put in more because they have to learn to focus their embouchure even more to play a smaller diameter piece. Many times they progress on their larger piece from using their smaller piece. Just some things to think about I guess.
All the best,
Jake
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