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Awesumsawse New Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Posts: 3
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Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: Having a Difficult Time With Double A |
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Hi everyone, I have recently started trying to increase my playable range and I seem to have hit a bit of a roadblock. I have a strong, full sounding G# four ledger lines above the staff (double G#?) that I have little problem playing in tunes, but I cannot seem to reach the A above it. I have tried all manner of alternate fingerings, as well as scales and arpeggios leading up to that note, but the only sounds coming out of my instrument (provided any sound comes out at all) are tuneless squeaks. Is there something that I can do to fix this or is it just something that will iron itself out with time? Any tips/advice you have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Anthony |
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Juergen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 590 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Ok my biggest suggestion would be to use the 3rd valve. That's what helps me. Also think about fast air; opening your throat, raising soft pallet. and really compress the lips (as this becomes more comfortable your lips won't need to be compressed as much and the sound will not be as tight) _________________ Go [(Blue))> |
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trumpaholic Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 1501 Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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try 123 for top A |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3832 Location: Greece
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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I use to have and still have some times the same problem the funny is i can play easier a double C than a A , anyway always the Caruso system helps me to fix this .
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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trumpaholic Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 1501 Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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My Schilke S 32 was funky on high F and G, a precision valve alignment by Ron Partch fixed this problem. Check your ports for poor alignment. |
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mcgovnor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 Posts: 2607 Location: ny ny
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: a |
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try moving your mouthpiece further into the receiver by 1/2 the distance difference in reeves sleeve sizes.
In other words, if the difference between a #4 and #5 is an eigth of an inch, try a sixteenth of an inch further in, or from a #4 to a # 4.5.
Third valve also decreases the resistance on this sometimes difficult note.
Also,in your practice, start lip trilling whole steps. Start down low and use all fingering combination's, one at a time, ascending.
When u get to high g, you should be tuned in enough to trill to a open and with 1-3. |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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"use the 3rd valve."
I saw Chuck Findley do this on his old Callicchio , George Graham used a half step above the fingering from A up. A would be first valve, Bflat second etc. Experiment and see if anything like that helps. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I have been around this issue for years. I could never get good A's, no matter what. I could get good B naturals, and Double c's though.
only recently after 30 years or so, have I gotten the A's like a regular note.
I always thought that the problem was that it was too much work. I always got Doulble B and C by backing off slightly and letting the note be softer. Since they are so high, it basically is acceptable to do that. play softer and get closer to the mic (if there is one)
But A's you really want to paste and pound like High G's. But it's WAY harder to paste an A than a G.
What did it for me was simply going to a mouthpiece with a higher "alpha angle. I my case a yamaha Shew lead was the first one. Now I had always been a guy that needed the extra room in the top of the cup to keep from bottoming out.
Every time I would hear someone with a really good A, like mike bogart, or Wayne B, they were playing on marcinkewics shew models.
So I got one on a whim, and spent about 2 months getting used do it. For some reason, the shew lead was a little easier to avoid bottoming out. I used it on gigs the very first night i got it. It had been twenty years since i had tried a mouthpiece like this.
That did the trick. Now my A's are good, and with all the normal fingerings too for g#, A, Bb, Bn and C.
I also got a conn 38B and that seems to really have nice spots for those notes. Still, on the 38b I could not play the A's with My GR66z*, or curry 3z both of which I played for a long time (6 years on the curry, 2 years on the z*).
So basically I say that it is a function of the mouthpiece, and how maxxed out your chops are, not the horn.
I had tried all manner of alternate fingerings and one day one fingering would be better, and the next day it would switch.
I went to a clinic with lew soloff once (great clinic) and he said that everyday he had to see what fingering would work for A that day. Then for the rest of that day, he would use that fingering. That kind of shows that it is not the horn with the issue.
Now I am playing a kanstul copy of the monette BL2, which is VERY close to a shew lead, and like it a lot.
Doug M _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Awesumsawse New Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 Posts: 3
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your suggestions, I really appreciate the help. |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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I had problems with that A until I started playing a Wild Thing trumpet.
I am not the only one who has had that experience with the WT. The Wild Thing simply does not have that as a problem note.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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This is true. In fact, on the Widl THing, I have no slotting issues at all. _________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces |
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corsair Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Posts: 135
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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My situation is this;
I can nail the A and up, but, from g to the a, or a to the g, I experience a skip between the 2 notes. Sometimes it is not as noticeable. and at one time I would just skip right up to the c. But, it sure is interesting training the muscles to work the embouchure to not have this phenomenon happen. And will soon be worked out to create a smooth transition from g to a and back. Using trills to work on it. And, I have gotten there, but, not as often as I'd like. Keep working on it. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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dbacon wrote: | "use the 3rd valve."
I saw Chuck Findley do this on his old Callicchio , George Graham used a half step above the fingering from A up. A would be first valve, Bflat second etc. Experiment and see if anything like that helps. |
George does this on his Bel Canto? _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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kramergfy wrote: | dbacon wrote: | "use the 3rd valve."
I saw Chuck Findley do this on his old Callicchio , George Graham used a half step above the fingering from A up. A would be first valve, Bflat second etc. Experiment and see if anything like that helps. |
George does this on his Bel Canto? |
Yes. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1889 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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For me, 1st valve is OK for the A, but 2nd valve works better - is more in tune and plays easier. I have no idea why. Then again, fingerings above G are pretty iffy - I can use almost any of them and get the sound, but centering it ... often iffy. (Did nail a nice D last night, but only once). _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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deleted_user_fdb91a0 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Double A was impossible for me to play in-tune for the longest time. Once I managed to get there consistently, double Bb became the issue, and still is. The ONLY way I can play a Bb is using all three valves, and throwing the first and third valve slides all the way out. I suppose making the horn as long as possible will stretch the partials in a certain direction, thus moving the break and making the note possible. |
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fraserhutch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 2548 Location: Oakville, ON Canada
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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And that's so surprising, because for me, double Bb is now the easiest note to play up there, followed by double B.
drewwilkie86 wrote: | Double A was impossible for me to play in-tune for the longest time. Once I managed to get there consistently, double Bb became the issue, and still is. The ONLY way I can play a Bb is using all three valves, and throwing the first and third valve slides all the way out. I suppose making the horn as long as possible will stretch the partials in a certain direction, thus moving the break and making the note possible. |
_________________ Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces |
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iambrassman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Dec 2005 Posts: 591 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | ...But A's you really want to paste and pound like High G's. But it's WAY harder to paste an A than a G....
Doug M |
That was my issue as well. In my experience, a LOT of players find the line between G and A to be the defining line between "lead" and "scream" players.
Now... the disappointing part... I've never gotten accross that line... I'm still stuck at a hog-leg G... that fizzles to a wimpy out-of-tune A
I plan to try some of the advice from these guys as well... _________________ Jim "IAmBrassman" Utley
Callet Jazz 0.470" /
Greg Black made John Blount Personal Mpc |
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waltisbadical Regular Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2008 Posts: 32 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I've been working on solidifying my range above double G for a while now. I think one of the most important things when learning to expand you range (especially making the step from G to A), is to make sure that you focus on your general mechanics.
Make sure you are taking a deep breath and not pressing too hard. Then, try to find the fingering that works best (it's 2nd valve for me, but obviously all different combinations work for different people). Keep the air moving through the horn and stay relaxed.
Then, at first, allow the note to stay out of tune. The goal is to find a slot, then as you progress you can move it into tune. This technique seems to have worked for me, someone who has never had the "gift" of range. However, now I can play notes above G, in tune, and with the same sound as my G's.
I had heard, second hand from a friend of mine in my undergrad, that this is the same idea that Faddis had introduced to him. In essence just trying to get around the note and gradually find a solid base for the note to slot in.
Also, Jay Saunders at North Texas preaches the idea of "thinking down." This idea deserves it's own devoted post, however, to touch on it, while going for the A, try to visualize yourself playing a pedal A. The thinking of a low note, that you can play, seems to help pop the upper register. It's saved me on many gigs. Give it a try.
Hope this helps... _________________ Stomvi VRII
Stomvi YSL VR J6 3 coupler
Stomvi 3SVR J6 2.5 coupler
BM UNT
MM USC
DMA USC |
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WeaselMan1 New Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2007 Posts: 7 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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I would reccommend starting seeing if you can play the sounding pitch of a high G# played 3rd valve with the tuning slide pulled out as far is it will go. then gradually push it in 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch until you have reached the A. the technique works on piccolo trumpet too. |
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