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Trptbenge Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2002 Posts: 2390 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: Mendez's Besson |
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I know this probably has been asked before but which model Besson did Mendez play - the Brevette or Meha? I am assuming it was the .460 bore and not the larger bore.
Thanks!
Mike _________________ It's the sound that makes the difference! |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5227 Location: ca.
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I've always thought it was the Besson Brevette? _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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tav4l Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 162
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I didn't know he played a Besson. I thought his main horns were the Olds horns made in Fullerton. Interesting. |
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bg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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The brevete was .460. Pre-war, the Meha was only a .460 brevete w/
"Meha" stamped on the bell. Post-war, the Meha was a .470.
Therefore, my assumption is that Mendez played a .460.
I currently own 1929, 1935 and 1937 brevetes, and a 1937 Meha.
bg |
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tav4l Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 162
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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bg wrote: | The brevete was .460. Pre-war, the Meha was only a .460 brevete w/
"Meha" stamped on the bell. Post-war, the Meha was a .470.
Therefore, my assumption is that Mendez played a .460.
I currently own 1929, 1935 and 1937 brevetes, and a 1937 Meha.
bg |
He played .460 and .462 bore horns, preferring the latter for orchestral work. He usually played the .460 for solo work and solo recording, although he did sometimes opt for the .462 on ballads. |
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Trptbenge Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2002 Posts: 2390 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the Brevette information. For those unfamiliar with the Besson story involving Mendez here is the quick version. In the early 50's Mendez had been playing a Besson when he was offered $5,000 by Besson to become a consultant and at the same time Olds wanted to sign hime as a clinician. Besson had already given him a $5,000 check and he came home to tell his wife Amor about it - only to find her wearing a mink coat sent to her by Olds as an enticement for Rafael to sign with them. When Rafael tried to explain to Amor that the $5,000 check would buy several mink coats she was unmoved and the check was returned to Besson.
Rafael signed with Olds with the stipulation that they would have to make a horn exactly to his specifications or he would continue to play his Besson. It took a while to get it right but that is another story.
Let's not wander all over the place and keep the thread on subject and positive.
Thanks Again!
Mike
Last edited by Trptbenge on Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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llswoods New Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 5 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Mendez Besson |
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The story I heard was that Mendez played a French Besson Brevete trumpet prior to his coming to F.E. Olds and Son.
When Olds decided to build the prototype Olds Mendez trumpet based upon his Besson in the 1950s, the valves were so tight that Mendez had the company free them up somewhat. Apparenty the old Besson that he had played for years had some leakage, and he had long since learned to compensate for that. Therefore came the more-loose Mendez trumpet valves, at least for his preferences. |
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oj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2003 Posts: 1699 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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This is the info I have about Mendez' horns:
Trumpets:
French Besson Brevette
Besson Meha (when doing studio recordings)
Olds Mendez (Besson copy)
Olds Recording(pre-balanced model)
Mouthpieces:
Bach 10 1/2C
Olds Mendez 1
Would love to know what type his first cornet was?
Ole |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5227 Location: ca.
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Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard also he played an Olds super recording for his studio work. _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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RM is my favorite trumpet player to listen too even as a kid I used to try and copy him. I have always wanted an Olds Mendez model just for the heck of it. It is not like it will do anything for me that many other models can not do but I have always wanted one none the less kindof like how some kids wanted Michael Jordan shoes! _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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DivineWind Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2009 Posts: 269 Location: MA
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmmmmm:
"Rafael Mendez and his Olds......"
http://rouses.net/trumpet/49oldsad.htm
Was he endorsing, and using, a 'Unicorn' then.....?..... _________________ "A trumpet is like a woman. If you lose one, just wait patiently and eventually a good one will come your way. And the older ones are a little better if you wait patiently, and a lot less expensive."
- Forrest Buchtel |
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trpt.hick Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 2632
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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All of the Mendez recordings were done on his Besson even though publicity photos show him with the Olds. His sons also told me that all ofhis practicing at home was on the Besson as well. |
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spach Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 424 Location: yazoo county, ms via northern calif. via central calif. via southern calif.
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Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: Mendez's MEHA |
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This was clearly wrong, so I removed it.
spach _________________ WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould
Last edited by spach on Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stevericks Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I think I heard the same tale about the fur coat, but also thought there was a $6 check with it. Maybe, maybe not.
Steve _________________ Steve
Olds, Kanstul, Bach |
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Ellsworth Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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bg wrote: | The brevete was .460. Pre-war, the Meha was only a .460 brevete w/
"Meha" stamped on the bell. Post-war, the Meha was a .470.
Therefore, my assumption is that Mendez played a .460.
I currently own 1929, 1935 and 1937 brevetes, and a 1937 Meha.
bg |
I'm curious about how you date your Bessons. The serial numbers of French Bessons are somewhat of a mess. It's very difficult to date an instrument by serial number. Unless you know the provenance, you can't really tell when it was made. When I was in high school, I played a Brevette. I knew exactly when it was made because it was ordered new by a friend of my dad's, and I was the second owner. According to serial number lists I've investigated, that horn was either made in 1934 or 1947. Neither of those dates is correct.
BTW, it was an excellent horn, but the valves went to hell by the time I went to university. I traded it on a new Mount Vernon Bach. I found out later that the dude who took it in trade replated the valves and sold it for more than I paid for the Bach. I still have the Bach but hardly ever play it. I find that, although my Mount Vernon is one of the best Bachs I've played, Bachs are much over-rated. I keep the old horn simply cuz I don't sell my horns. Don't know why. _________________ Bach Mount Vernon Bb
Schilke B3
Yamaha YTR-741 C
Yamaha YTR-751 D
Besson 60 MD Eb/D
Wurlitzer Melodie C/Bb/A
Conn 85A Bb/A Cornet |
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spach Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 424 Location: yazoo county, ms via northern calif. via central calif. via southern calif.
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Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Ellsworth...You're right about the confusion surrounding besson serial numbers. This is most likely the result of there being several "eras", each having different series of numbers; prewar, postwar, BH, Kanstul, and now India. The fact that Kanstul models bore the same bell stamps as the originals doesn't help matters. But here's the most accurate listing of serial numbers for prewar models I've found. You might also want to do a search on this site for "meha and serial and numbers".
Besson - Paris (1869-1947)
Serial Numbers / Year of Manufacture
001-10000 / 1869-74
10001-14000 / 1874-76
14001-24143 / 1876-79
24144-26000 / 1879-82
26001-30000 / 1882-84
30001-36000 / 1884-87
36001-40000 / 1887-89
40001-50000 / 1889-94
50001-68000 / 1894-1901
68001-69000 / 1901-05
69001-70000 / 1905-06
70001-77500 / 1906-11
77501-82000 / 1911-20
82001-87000 / 1920-34
87001-92000 / 1934-47
Cheers,
Spach _________________ WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould |
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rafaelsatchmo Regular Member
Joined: 29 Aug 2011 Posts: 28 Location: Mesquite, Nevada
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: Mendez, his Besson, and Olds |
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There is a lot of misinformation out there. While it is true that Mendez play a Besson prior to signing with Olds as a clinician, it is not true that he continued to play that make of horn.
Yes, Olds began by measuring Mendez' Besson. That was done by Harper Reynolds, brother of Foster Reynolds, who was also involved. Foster, by the way, was the man responsible for the King Master Cornet in addition to his own horns made in the 1930s.
But the Olds Mendez was not a strict copy...more of an evolution. (Olds, by the way, would copy any horn for anyone. The craftsmen and engineers there were very good.) He played a Recording model until his was ready in 1952. He then played the Mendez horn exclusively. According to R. Dale Olsen, who was Dir. of Research at F.E. Olds in the 1960s, "Ralph" would routinely, when doing a clinic and discovering that one of the students was playing a Mendez, trade horns and play the student's Mendez, just to show that the equipement was less important than the player, and that Mendez didn't have anything special or tricked out to play.
If you look at the videos on YouTube that are clips from an educational film he made in 1957, you'll see he's playing an Olds Mendez (you'll especially note this when he uses the 3rd valve trigger, which Besson did not have).
I know this may disappoint the Besson fans. F. Besson horns were great. But on the road and in concerts, Ralph played an Olds Mendez. A great horn in its own right. _________________ Olds Mendez (1959), Besson New Creation Cornet (1925); Courtois Grand Siecle C (1973),Holton 23 D (with Bach 236 bell and Melk lead pipe) (1962); Olds E Flat (mid 1960s), Olds Flugelhorn (1962) Curry 7DE and 7P mouthpieces |
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Brian Moon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 2785 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Mendez, his Besson, and Olds |
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rafaelsatchmo wrote: |
I know this may disappoint the Besson fans. F. Besson horns were great. But on the road and in concerts, Ralph played an Olds Mendez. A great horn in its own right. |
Because Olds gave his wife a mink coat that he didn't feel he could ask her to give back.
I am pretty sure that I got that story right. _________________ Either is fine. My chops always feel great
ObamaCare, a massive government takeover, a measure destroying jobs and the economy, a law designed to enslave the American people, an instrument of tyranny in the hands of criminal elitists. |
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stevericks Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Mendez, his Besson, and Olds |
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Brian Moon wrote: | rafaelsatchmo wrote: |
I know this may disappoint the Besson fans. F. Besson horns were great. But on the road and in concerts, Ralph played an Olds Mendez. A great horn in its own right. |
Because Olds gave his wife a mink coat that he didn't feel he could ask her to give back.
I am pretty sure that I got that story right. |
Correct. His wife really liked the coat and he made the "wise" decision (as all you married guys know). Of course, I imagine that Mendez was happy with his choice -it was just another company had offered him a higher dollar value. He wouldn't have stayed with the Olds if he wasn't completely happy with the horns. In fact, at one point he had the valves on his new horn "loosed up" to where there was considerable blowby. He didn't like them with good compression. _________________ Steve
Olds, Kanstul, Bach |
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trpt.hick Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 2632
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, it was a mink stole. The Mendez Library has several photos of her wearing it.
The sons of Mendez confirmed with me that he did record all of his albums with the Besson, even though all album photos have him with the Olds. Commercial videos, like publicity photographs required him to use the Olds.
Dave Hickman |
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