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camelbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2002 Posts: 1397 Location: Dubai, UAE
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Tony,
I would be interested in your thoughts as to why you would want to design and play an instrument like that and what type of sound you would be looking for. The bore and bell size is getting into small bore bone territory and the large, shallow mouthpiece is certainly a different take on a theme. Most large bore trumpet players I know tighten up their mouthpieces to compensate.
Regards,
Trevor |
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regularsopguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 577
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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sounds like Kanstul's new bass trumpet with a small receiver
www.kanstul.com on the trombone page! _________________ "Come with uncle and hear all proper. Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones...you are invited." |
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regularsopguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 577
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Kanstul makes a better one! My school program has four of these babies!
The build is better and so is the intonation. The valves work too. _________________ "Come with uncle and hear all proper. Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones...you are invited." |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1853 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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In regards to the integral mpc, I have an idea. How about make the leadpipe and receiver solid, but allow the cup \ rim to be changed ala Warburton style screw on "tops". Just screw whatever cup \ rim you want onto the fixed backbore\receiver\leadpipe. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7014 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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regularsopguy wrote: | sounds like Kanstul's new bass trumpet with a small receiver
www.kanstul.com on the trombone page! |
Didn't get to play it, but I got to hold it! The picture is of the prototype. There were four actual bass trumpets in the factory that day. Two were in the buffing foom and two were ready to ship. All four were silver plated. they are reputed to be a better horn than the Bach equivalent (as assessed by some local pros that play Bach horns and tried Kanstul's prototype).
Okay, Tony. So how did this "fishing trip" of yours turn out?
Brian
p.s. I still like .464" horns best! _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965
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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: Scodwell VERY large bore trumpet |
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Trevor has hit upon something here. Guys who play large bore horns tend to compensate with smallish mouthpieces. My theory is to go with a very large bore horn and a very small [shallow] mouthpiece. My experience with my mellophonium is what brought me to this concept. At first the Kenton mellophonium section were playing on rather shallow pieces and bugging the hell out of the trumpet section cause they could play much higher for longer periods of time. Of course the notes were mellophoniumish, which is to say not trumpet like. Non the less they were high and loud, which is what I assume a lot of guys want to do these days. God knows, I was dubbed the "Maynard Ferguson of the Mellophonium" in a review of the Kenton band in England in 1963. Large bore, high notes, not killing yourself, louder than the rest of the band, come on, what's not to like here?
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns
"Live In The Studio" by the Tony Scodwell Big Band now at CD Baby
Coming from Hal Leonard, "Big Band Classics featuring Tony Scodwell" |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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HAHA! I was right! As I was reading through this thread, I was thinking you were describing a mellophone. I was also thinking you had your tongue planted in your cheek!
I played a .484 Holton for about 8 years. As Flip measured it, the valve ports were smaller by various amounts, but the slides were all .484. I used a Callet Varicup-Bukur 15S with that monster, and I got band burying volume out of it. It was great for when the prima dona singer would stand in front of me . . . _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1862 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Tony,
Assuming that you are not just yanking our waterkeys on this - the most successful model for your trumpet should be the Conn 80A Vic "cornet". No need for a large diameter bell but the bell on the Con Vic seems be be larger in internal diameter up to the end part of the flare. The leadpipe is an extremely fast taper - going from a cornet mpc to .485 or so very quickly. Control the resistance in the front end of the leadpipe rather than choking the bell. Make it a tunable bell - the Conn Vic's Opera glass tuning slide was really a tunable bell. Use a bass trumpet valve casing that has an actual .485 internal valve not just slide diameter - however I have one that I think has a .468 valve cluster with .485 slides that works well too. If you like larger bore horns of this design, there is no need for a super shallow or tight mouthpiece. just a backbore that matches the cup depth. It might be easier, however to make it a long model "cornet" like the Mendez or the Conn 28A - a trumpet with a cornet mouthpiece. This would give you more control over the leadpipe taper. You might actually be able to sell a few of these.
Of players I know who like open horns - most of us started on the largebore Olds or Conn cornets of the 50's. Our downfall was being talked into our first Bach trumpet. |
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MarioChanelio Regular Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Posts: 15
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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The .484 sounds huge. I had trouble playing a .470 because of the air it took. I guess it would be the right horn for the right player. Good luck with the project. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1891 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I tried out the Martin Magna Mic Gillette model with the .484 bore (and 6" bell), but it was too much for me. Stuck with the .470 for 25 years, and wish I could still make that one scream, but I can't any more. But you might want to look at one for research purposes. They play very well, and project like a beast (and in all directions), but require some serious power. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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regularsopguy wrote: |
Kanstul makes a better one! My school program has four of these babies!
The build is better and so is the intonation. The valves work too. |
Mine is similar to this one, only it is a 1981 King. I wonder if Zig designed it? _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord |
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mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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dershem wrote: | I tried out the Martin Magna Mic Gillette model with the .484 bore (and 6" bell), but it was too much for me. Stuck with the .470 for 25 years, and wish I could still make that one scream, but I can't any more. But you might want to look at one for research purposes. They play very well, and project like a beast (and in all directions), but require some serious power. |
Weren't there only 6 Martin Magna's (.484)ever made? Is that true? _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord |
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mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mcahynuacrkd"] regularsopguy wrote: |
Kanstul makes a better one! My school program has four of these babies!
The build is better and so is the intonation. The valves work too. |
Mine is similar to this one, only it is a 1981 King. I wonder if Zig designed it?
I would describe the intonation as average at best, and it is very difficult to get a pro sound out of one. The compact design is very convenient in certain settings (like church). _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord |
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mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | Tony,
Assuming that you are not just yanking our waterkeys on this - the most successful model for your trumpet should be the Conn 80A Vic "cornet". No need for a large diameter bell but the bell on the Con Vic seems be be larger in internal diameter up to the end part of the flare. The leadpipe is an extremely fast taper - going from a cornet mpc to .485 or so very quickly. Control the resistance in the front end of the leadpipe rather than choking the bell. Make it a tunable bell - the Conn Vic's Opera glass tuning slide was really a tunable bell. Use a bass trumpet valve casing that has an actual .485 internal valve not just slide diameter - however I have one that I think has a .468 valve cluster with .485 slides that works well too. If you like larger bore horns of this design, there is no need for a super shallow or tight mouthpiece. just a backbore that matches the cup depth. It might be easier, however to make it a long model "cornet" like the Mendez or the Conn 28A - a trumpet with a cornet mouthpiece. This would give you more control over the leadpipe taper. You might actually be able to sell a few of these.
Of players I know who like open horns - most of us started on the largebore Olds or Conn cornets of the 50's. Our downfall was being talked into our first Bach trumpet. |
The Victor 80A has many bends, which really mellows out its sound.
Surprisingly, I own both a pre Conn Limited Victor 80 A(gold plate, 1914? 474 bore?) , and a Conn Circus Bore Cornet, and in my opinion as a former Wild Thing (great trumpet btw)owner neither play big like a Flip Oakes Wild Thing.
The original Conn Mellophoniums were extremely loud, when I was in hs band I played one my freshman year, and if I wanted to I could easily overpower the band with the mellophonium, but the tone, less than to be desired in my humble opinion.
Why did the pure conical circular design not produce a desirable tone?
Who knows as the massive Corso flugelhorn , IMHO was rejected for the same reason, and was called (not by me)"a dog".
Bach pro trumpets are very good, and do not deserve to be dissed.
I once owned a lovely Mt. Vernon and it was a very good trumpet. In my opinion pro line Bach trumpets do not sound anywhere near as beautiful as a Calicchio, but they do sound very nice. _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1891 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: |
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mcahynuacrkd wrote: | dershem wrote: | I tried out the Martin Magna Mic Gillette model with the .484 bore (and 6" bell), but it was too much for me. Stuck with the .470 for 25 years, and wish I could still make that one scream, but I can't any more. But you might want to look at one for research purposes. They play very well, and project like a beast (and in all directions), but require some serious power. |
Weren't there only 6 Martin Magna's (.484)ever made? Is that true? |
It's what I was told by Mic. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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MarioChanelio Regular Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Just curious about the concept behind making a horn with such a large bore. I know that usually they are much harder to play for long periods of time and require much more air. Maybe this horn would be good for building up air and endurance. Sort of like the breather tool they give patients to build up their lung capacity. I know it would be an instrument on a professional level as well but maybe it would become a great practice tool. Sort of like lifting weights to build up strength. Just a thought. |
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connloyalist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2002 Posts: 1154 Location: Netherlands (by way of New York)
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Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Just to be accurate:
Quote: | Conn 28B?(not 29b , the 28 b was in Bb, the 29B in A ) |
Correct, 28B was the low pitch Bb 0.484" bore Conn trumpet in the 1920's. Outwardly identical to the 22B. The 29B wasn't in A, it was high pitch, A~456 Hz.
camelbrass wrote: | The bore and bell size is getting into small bore bone territory |
Depends on what era you are looking at. In the early 1900's when the Conn 2H was a popular instrument, a trombone in 0.484" was called "medium bore". The 2H, you see, is a 0.458" trombone. Now THAT is a SMALL bore Played by people like Arthur Pryor if memory serves.
The 0.484" bore trombones were very popular through the 1930's and 1940's as a medium bore non-symphonic trombone. Many of Conn's popular trombone models in those days were 0.484" bore (4H, 12H, 44H).
Which I suppose is not relevant to this discussion.
Regards, Christine _________________ There is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution. |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2894 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Bore size is a red herring.
Its the overall resistance of the instrument combined with the compression of the mouthpiece that needs to be balanced to make a workable trumpet. If the blow feels too resistive you will tire easily and the same if its too open.
For example, most rotary trumpets are around 0.435" bore but the bells are larger which compensates. My Monette trumpet is a medium bore but with a bell flare and mouthpiece backbore and throat which balances this out.
My cornet is .484 but this simply overcomes the resistance introduced by all the extra bends in the short cornet design and makes it more playable for longer periods as the resistance feel is more like a trumpet.
If I put my lips over the mouthpiece and exhale into it I want to feel an initial small resistance with this reducing once the air is flowing. If I have a set up which is too open or too closed it restricts my range, dynamic range and ability to articulate.
I think this is why I have such a strange mismatched set of instruments. They have been selected to have similar blowing characteristics. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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hansonsf Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 Posts: 670
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Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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connloyalist wrote: | . . . Correct, 28B was the low pitch Bb 0.484" bore Conn trumpet in the 1920's. Outwardly identical to the 22B. The 29B wasn't in A, it was high pitch, A~456 Hz. . . . Regards, Christine |
Oh my gosh Christine! I want a 28B (22B with extra extra elbow room! ) so badly!!!!
I played a Strad 25 (.462) for over a quarter century and I had a Yammmy 739T (.462 Schilke copy) for a few months recently. I love that big roomy feel. I had to give up both horns to pursue my love of CONN
You know how things so often come up in twos on eBay? Well, a while back two 28B's came up inside of a week. Both had valves worn right down to the bronze; obviously played right to death. I really would like to find a playable or original, but then, perhaps a valve job will just be a fact of life when it comes to one of these.
As for the introduction of a new king-size bore . . . bring it!!!! I won't be able to buy one as I'm sticking to CONN, but I'm sure lots will!!! |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: |
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MarioChanelio wrote: | Just curious about the concept behind making a horn with such a large bore. I know that usually they are much harder to play for long periods of time and require much more air. Maybe this horn would be good for building up air and endurance. Sort of like the breather tool they give patients to build up their lung capacity. I know it would be an instrument on a professional level as well but maybe it would become a great practice tool. Sort of like lifting weights to build up strength. Just a thought. |
I thought the same thing, then thought about the fact that trombone players play an instrument with practically NO resistance as we think of it, and even 100 lb 6th graders learn to do long tones. Once you get the mental concept and put the resistance in the chops, rather than leaning on the horn, bore size no longer matters.
I read something a while back about blowing through the mouthpiece, and I think the analogy given was to blow to the tuning slide, rather than to the mouthpiece. I tried it and could feel a difference. The sound got bigger, my tuning slide had to come out as I was playing much sharper than normal, and endurance went down a bunch.
With cornet, particularly the big bore Conns, I put the resistance in the chops, and go for resonance rather than volume. If you feel the cornet vibrate in your hand, then either you have a solder spot on a brace coming loose (practically nonexistent with the Conn straight brace) or you have set up the proper resonant waves through the instrument. Some may read this and say "Duh, that's the way ALL good instruments play!" but I don't get this with trumpet very often.
When you get that resonant wave going, it takes less air to maintain a quality sound than without it. At that point, bore size only affects the amount of adjustment at the embouchure, rather than amount of air you put through the horn. Too much air disrupts the resonance, takes away from volume, and begins a vicious cycle of diminishing returns. |
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