Pivot Pedagogy

[Wilktone]

Since the jaw must protrude slightly to ascend and recede slightly to descend (in conjunction with the pivot), often time Dr. Reinhardt would prescribe his students to raise the horn angle while ascending - not because the horn needed to be tilted up, but to encourage the jaw to protrude (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Many of my students will lower their horn angle while ascending during the Pivot Stabilizer. When I watch very closely it appears that their jaw is not protruding as they ascend, so perhaps they're compensating by bringing the horn angle down.

Should I encourage them to raise their horn angle slightly while ascending during the Pivot Stabilizer? Of course, on the Track Routine I should encourage them to keep a consistent horn angle.

What is the purpose of maintaining a consistent horn angle during the Track Routine, when this isn't discussed for the Pivot Stabilizer?

Thanks!

Dave W.
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wilktone.com

[BeboppinFool]

Doc told me to only use the exaggerated compensating movements during the Pivot Stabilizer (and that they would subside in time) and then forget all that when moving on to the Track Routine. Once I left the Pivot Stabilizer page I was to forget about any angular motion of the horn.

I'm not on my computer and this keyboard is a drag. More later.

Rich
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Puttin’ On The Ritz

[bgibson]

Dave W.;
Rich is correct with his post.
Eventually all movement is minimal.
I seem to recall Dave S. quoting Doc about movement.
Dave S. could you point us in the right direction about this topic???????????
During the mid-late 1970's I remember Doc talking about a well known trumpet player who came in for a lesson all cut up:
"When are you going to cut out the Theatrics?"
"I mean THIS when you play!"
"Well, he comes in here and he is all cut up."

WEG

[Mr.Hollywood]

Hey Guys,

I seem to recall Doc saying that about our friend fron the Basie band.

I believe he used the phrase "He a member of Acrobatics of America".

Boy, I sure do miss the old man........

Chris

[BeboppinFool]

Okay, I'm on my home computer with some time to pay attention to what I'm doing.

[bgibson]

Rich;
Are you sure you would want to raise the horn angle for an ascending pivot for a type IIIB while doing the Stabilizer????????
I would want to exagerate the pivot during the stabilizer. We are talking about people that are in the formative stages of embouchure development, correct???
Maybe it is the part of the country I am in but I am seeing a very weak area 1 and some really classic jaw drops in the younger students.
I would say that the weak area 1 is the most common problem.
I should clarify that by stating of the mechanical corrections that need to be made first, area one is weak in a vast majority of the "embouchures in theirformative stages" that I have come across in the upper mid west. Anyone else notice this???????
Dave S reminded me that we must remember that what Doc told us in our lesson might not be what the next person is told.
I do seem to recall that in his later years Doc would really be on the lookout for one specific problem for a certain period of time and then would be on the lookout for something else.
I think this was great for those that could see him on a regular basis but I wonder about those that were on the once or twice a year plan.
Chris, no it was the lead trumpet on another famous road band that Doc was talking about.
WEG

[Wilktone]

Dave S. reminded me in an email about the Pivot Type 1 being different from a Pivot Type 2 regarding horn angle, particularly with trumpet players, who's hand is further away from the embouchure than trombonists. Exaggerating the upward tilted horn angle to ascend seems as if it could do more harm than good with players who utilize Pivot Type 1.

How should I encourage my students to protrude the jaw slightly while ascending, if not by having them raise the horn angle? Some like to lower their horn angle instead of protruding the jaw. Should I have these students try to ascend without lower the horn angle or should I have them focus their attention on their jaw?

[bgibson]

How should I encourage my students to protrude the jaw slightly while ascending, if not by having them raise the horn angle? Some like to lower their horn angle instead of protruding the jaw. Should I have these students try to ascend without lower the horn angle or should I have them focus their attention on their jaw?



Without seeing the student it is difficult to tell you what to do. How much mpc pressure are they using???
The jaw retention drill will help.

Quote:
I would say that the weak area 1 is the most common problem.


I'm at home as I type this and don't have access to my Pivot System materials. Could you clarify what "area 1" means, please?


Dave W.;
From my Orientation, the General Analysis and Corrections for Now sheet:
"the area from your nose to your chin and from one mouthcorner to the opposite mouthcorner......................" "In the PIVOT SYSTEM this is called area one; whereas, the cheek area (from the cheek bone to the jaw bone and from the mouth corners almost back to the ears, is called area two in the PIVOT SYSTEM."


Lastly (for now), I'm also curious about how to help my students determine the best mouthpiece placement, and in some cases embouchure type, for them. If I understand Dr. Reinhardt's teachings correctly, he would always type the student "for now" and prescribe exercises and suggestions based on that type. My initial exposure to the Pivot System, through a lesson with Doug Elliott, was to actually change my type from a downstream type (Type IIIB, I think) to an upstream Type IVA.

If a student's embouchure isn't functioning efficiently how can I help them find an efficient one?


Depends on the individual, every student is different. Have to see the student and watch them play with a clear mpc.



Should I have them try different embouchure types to find the one that works best for them? If this can be detrimental, what exercises or approaches can be used to help the student naturally gravitate towards their best mouthpiece placement/embouchure type?

After you have taught them how to buzz correctly, have them WET everything (lips, mpc, teeth, gums, etc.) I mean saturate. Form their lips as if they were going to buzz and then have them "throw it up there".
In most cases where it lands is where it should be "For Now".
This would be for the beginner, now if you are refering to your college students:
Did you give them the Pivot Test?
Did you look at them while they played in a clear mpc?
Dave S. would have some excellent input on this.
These are excellent questions but I really need to see each individual before I go further.
There are too many variations and one could make a serious error without seeing what you are talking about.
WEG

[scream]

If I might chime in here on finding the mouthpiece placement....I find "Buzzing Category One" of the "Four Buzzing Categories"a great tool for finding mouthpiece placement (good for downstream types, but sometimes used on upstreamers to firm up a flabby chin and mouth corners). I thought I heard on one of Doc's cassettes, the ones you heard in his studio while waiting for your lesson that Dave S. offered years ago (or was it something Rene Bernard told me) that "Sound determines placement not feel. What sounds good doesn't necessarily feel good". In fact, I believe the Four Categories used as written would put a student on the right track to finding a consistent placement and eventual pivot.

I haven't heard any real discussion on these drills....I think they would be a good starting point for Dave W. in his studio.
Any thoughts gentlemen?
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

[bgibson]

Paul;
I think that is an excellent idea.
The problem (at least for me) is that you really need to see the student in person.
Having been typed wrong by several well meaning but mis-informed former Reinhardt students makes me overly cautious.
To prevent a potential fire:
None of those people (that typed me wrong) are on this forum as far as I know and I believe two of them are no longer in the music business. This also happened before Doc started his teacher training clinics.
WEG

[Mr.Hollywood]

Having a downstream player "walk in" to find his placement is not a good idea.

First off; To buzz correctly the jaw must be receded ( not in its playing position)

Secondly; Walking in will encourage the downstream player to place slightly higher than normal.

And last; A downstream players placement MUST be where he has his best four legs. I know from personal experience that you can "walk in" and play without your legs. Think about it.......you don't need four legs to buzz......You don't need any legs to buzz....... But you MUST have legs when you place your mouthpiece. So why would you use this to find a beginers placement??


Chris

[scream]

Well then, I'm confused...and not the first time either. Why would Doc have that drill then (rhetorical)? I guess you have to assume the placement is wrong in the first place. Wouldn't the "whittling it in" process begin to bring the horn angle up, a la getting the jaw forward. At some point you have to get the legs involved after you've buzzed and walked it up into a playing set. And I do understand the higher placement....that has been noticed by some of my students. It does all seem to come out in the wash in the end.

Dave S. gave me a sheet where he maps out the high spots on the lower teeth. High spots on teeth have a big part in finding your legs. What's the approach here? Is it "Helping Mother Nature" or a more pragmatic approach by saying, "put it here?"

So....Chris.....Dave S.....Bill.....Rich.....Set me straight here.
_________________
Paul Garrett
Lawrenceville, GA


"Wherever you go....there you are."
Buckaroo Bonzai

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2003-04-17 19:20 ]

[Mr.Hollywood]

Paul,

Without a doubt you have more experience teaching beginers than I do. As far as finding a beginers "embouchure" goes.......I pass to Dave Sheetz.

But I do know from my own personal experience as a downstream player that buzzing and walking in can screw up even the most seasoned professionals "legs"

From a practical standpoint ask yourself this.......What is the biggest problem that the type IIIB faces.....The MEATHOOK!! I would think that when you start a kid out ( especially a IIIB) that one of your most important tasks would be to encourage the "weight on the lower lip" or "stay with the jaw".

You are an upstream type...... I am a IIIB and went through the complete "four catagories of the buzzing" routine. Doc says that for the entire routine (four weeks) that the jaw stays in its "natural reposed position". The only way to "walk in" correctly is to keep the jaw in. I don't think that this sets a good precedent for a beginer.

Dave........Help us out on this one...Please.


Chris

[bgibson]

I'm Looking at my lesson sheet from Doc dated May 24, 1975:
Last item is:
"PLAY ALL THE "LICKS THAT THE NEIGHBORS CAN STAND"- BUT BUZZ INTO THEM.........."
(The caps were Doc's)
Also he says to buzz into the chromatic fourth range extension.
He also tells me to walk it in on my May 30 1975 lesson sheet.
Since I am a IIIB I am a little confused by some of the previous posts.
WEG

[ This Message was edited by: bgibson on 2003-04-17 20:19 ]

[Mr.Hollywood]

Bill,

We are discussing a begining downstream trumpet player "finding" his placement.

We are not discussing a player who already has "his legs" and needs to firm up his area one with "walking in" drills.

As I recall Doc did not give the "four catagories of the buzzing" on an Orientation (First lesson) And I don't recall him ever using it to "find" and embouchure for a beginner.

It is possible to do the "walk in" without your legs. You need sufficient backward pressure to establish your legs. When you "walk in" you can play with virtually no mouthpiece pressure.........Not the greatest thing for establishing your legs.


Chris

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2003-04-17 22:46 ]

[scream]

Chris,

You give food for thought (I was a IIIB when I met Doc)....I'm still at a loss for THE way to approach this. And I know it needs to be approached diferently for each person. I remember Dave S. telling me that when Doc got a beginning student, that student would learn how to buzz, then learn how to buzz and slur upwards before they even got to playing on the horn. And that could take a couple of weeks or more maybe. Somewhat impractical considering todays instant gratification attitude.

Bill...what do you do to start beginning student...and Dave S. what do you do to start beginning students???
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

[bgibson]

Paul;
It is ironic that you ask this question because I am teaching a brass methods class at the university this semester.
Doc told me in a lesson to start a beginner off by getting them to buzz (this for RW -free buzz).
with their embouchures wet, no horn or mpc.
Use a Hoo attack.
So that is what I did with my class.
Then when they were given their instruments I had them wet (saturate) the embouchure area and mpc rim, form their embouchure as if they were going to buzz and throw it up there.
Where it lands is where it is supposed to be "For Now".
With a regular brass student, I teach them how to buzz and get them on a Spiderweb ASAP.
Now if the "Basic Studies For The Beginner" was available the student would be working out of that book.
I assign the "Trio of Daily Calisthenics" from the Encyclopedia to all of mybrass students.
This a Readers Digest version of the first lesson.
I usually have students that have been playing for some length of time. (even the college students, HA!)
When Doc assigned me those buzzing routines and walking in routines my embouchure was still in the formative stages and my legs were NOT solid.
Those routines did help me find my legs, the one thing that Doc did that really locked everything in for me was to have me raise my left arm.
Also, for me the embouchure had to be knocked in.
The "baby it in" approach never worked for me.
Now during this period of time you must remember I was doing a considerable amount of very hard playing. Doc thought that this really helped solidify my playing mechanics.
Hope this answers some of the questions,
WEG

[scream]

Thanks Bill......

Chris, how would you want to start a beginner? I'm trying to put together a framework to start students with...something a little more concrete with my students. Sometimes I feel a little haphazard in my approach to the Pivot System. Besides, I've got a couple of brass teachers that I need to set straight here at my school. I would like to at least open their eyes about this.

I just got to thinking, this topic began with the good Dr. Wilkens. I hope you have found this to be of some use to you.

This is what it's all about.....let the learnin' begin.....


_________________
Paul Garrett
Lawrenceville, GA


"Wherever you go....there you are."
Buckaroo Bonzai

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2003-04-18 13:43 ]

[Mr.Hollywood]

So you want to know how I would start off a new student.........

Well the first thing I would ask him would be....................

Why the hell do you want to play this coil of torture????????????

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2003-04-18 15:08 ]

[BeboppinFool]

Coil of Torture?

I've heard the trumpet called a Wind Driven Tone Approximator.

Sorry I haven't contributed much to this topic. I'm looking for my Beginner's book tonight, I promise!

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz