Pivot Pedagogy

[airdyn]

How to start a beginner in the Pivot System? Hello? Anybody read the Bible (The Encyclopedia of the Pivot System) anymore? Page 183 Question 75. What is regarded as the traditional [wrong] method of starting a beginner on a brass instrument? through pages 185-189 Question #76...what procedure is generally used to start the beginner with the PIVOT SYSTEM? Remember, a beginner in the PIVOT SYSTEM could be a young child or a seasoned veteran in trouble.
Dave S.

[scream]

Chris, Rich....very pithy answers.

Dave S. as usual comes through with page and verse. I started looking through the book and hadn't gotten that far yet. Most of the answers are there. I tend to get too wrapped up in my handouts and forget to read the book.....
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

[Wilktone]

With regards to finding the "correct" mouthpiece placement/embouchure type, I'm asking more generally, rather than concerning a specific student. Maybe my own experience and introduction to the Pivot System can offer some insights and raise more questions.

Through most of college into graduate school I had been playing as what I think was a Type IIIB. I had a lot of trouble, most specifically a poor high register, fuzzy tone, and trouble with splitting attacks. In a lesson with Doug Elliott I was changed to a Type IVA. Doug watched me play a bit and then had me hold out pitches (high B flat and F above the staff mostly, if I remember correctly) while he moved my horn angle around.

What is the purpose of moving the horn angle around like this? Is this something Doug picked up from Doc or did he come up with this approach on his own? How would this help find an efficient mouthpiece placement or is this just to help look for the "legs?"

Anyway, back to my story. After checking out my IIIB embouchure for a bit Doug asked me to try placing my mouthpiece higher (like a IIIA), although he started off by stating he didn't think this was going to help but he wanted to check it just in case. He asked me to try playing as high as I could, as well as hold out pitches again while he moved the horn angle around. It didn't help.

Then he asked me to move my mouthpiece placement low, like a type IV or IVA. This was initially unsucessful because I was still trying to direct the airstream downwards as before. After describing to me what he was after I was able to get my lips in a more correct position and was able to play a thin, miserable high F for the first time in my life.

I have had some success duplicating this process with a few of my students, but sometimes it doesn't work. Using this approach I've also helped some students find their legs by not changing their embouchure type but by suggesting they try allowing the placement to move to one side or another.Is this the equivelent of "knocking it in?" If so, describe the "baby it in" approach, please. Is it ever detrimental to do this kind of experimentation with a student or do you feel it can be helpful? Would it be better to just allow mouthpiece placement to move where it "wants" to naturally?

Dave W.
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wilktone.com

[BeboppinFool]

I've been waiting for one of our other Reinhardt followers to answer your questions, Dave.

You and I need to talk on the phone here in the near future. I'm pressed for time right at the moment, and haven't had the plentitude of time necessary to give your questions a thoughtful response.

And that's why I'm still waiting for one of our other Reinhardt cats to jump in.

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[BobList]

I think the "holding the note and moving your horn around" thing means he was trying to hear the core sound; trying to find the best pressure point ( weight area ) on the chops. All part of trying to find your correct pivot angle......it works, too...it was done to me....I woulda never thought...... :^) Bob

[bgibson]

Dave;
What you ask would take me a considerable amount of time to answer here in the forum.
Each student is a seperate case and what works for one might not work for the other even if they are the same type.
It is almost impossible to analyze and correct a students problem without seeing him/her in person.
Even then it may take more than one lesson to arrive at the correct answer.
I think I can answer some of your questions via phone.
I will be in my office Wednesday night and Thursday.
Leave a message if I do not answer.
Give me a call if RW has not answered your questions.
WEG

[airdyn]

Thank you, Bill, for this very intelligent post. I would like to add, that to "blanket- solve" individual problems without an "in-person" observation is not advised, for "one man's meat is another man's poison", as Doc was so apt to say.
I would like to use Doc's words on the following, that will apply to ALL of the browsers here on this forum and will just perhaps answer Dave W.'s questions ...Doc says: "All too many students take "THE TRIO OF DAILY PLAYING CALISTHENICS" which consists of "The Buzzing Routine" (to reduce embouchure flabbiness and increase vibrating fluency) - "The Jaw Retention Drill" (to strengthen the jaw muscles) - and "The Pencil Trick Routine" (to increase over-all embouchure compression) - all too lightly. Four minutes must be spent on each of the three drills, with plenty of rest between them. these drills should be a daily occurrence for your entire playing life and this is stated without exaggeration. ...To make the embouchure too firm, rather than too loose, a split-second before actual mouthpiece rim contact against the embouchure is a must as far as being on the safe side is concerned."
"[DAILY DRILL #FOUR] (along with the trio of daily playing calisthenics) : FIRM THE MOUTH CORNERS IN AND AGAINST YOUR TEETH (positively not backward or forward), THIS FIRMS YOUR ENTIRE EMBOUCHURE FORMATION AS IT MUST BE BEFORE ACTUAL MOUTHPIECE PLACEMENT. IN SHORT, IT IS THE BUZZING FORMATION WITH THE LOWER JAW IN ITS EXACT PLAYING POSITION. ...Sustain this firmed mouth corner in and against the teeth formation, with the lower lip in buzzing position (slightly inward and over the lower lip) for a few seconds at a time at first, then strive to build up the number of seconds without fatigue. After a few days of this, place your mouthpiece on this saturated, firm embouchure, inhale through the nose, and play. If it feels different than usual, then you can see just how far your placement mannerism has taken you "off base" - so to speak.
Trust this helps ALL players. I know it will. Pay special attention to the 4th drill's words "The Buzzing FORMATION with the lower jaw in its exact playing position"! So here we know not to Buzz and expect our (lower)jaw to be in the playing position.
thanks, Dave S.

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-04-22 08:11 ]

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-04-22 08:12 ]

[Wilktone]

[BeboppinFool]

[airdyn]

Recently i received an email that included Berkely's Law #5: Most problems have either many answers or no answers. Only a few problems have a single answer.
Yes, Dave W., the QUARTET of daily calesthenics will take care, in most cases, where the jaw should be while playing. As to finding a placement, i would give much credit to these calisthenics in this catagory also.
It seems that most of your students ( maybe all of them) have an embouchure in the formative stages. If area one is not firm, it doesn't matter where you place the mouthpiece...the results will be the same...which makes me want to ask you, what is wrong with their present placements? "Fuzzy tone", "no range" , bad sound, can't slur, can't tongue,???just what is it? What SPECIFICALLY?Changing a mouthpiece placement on a "formative-stage" embouchure is something that I never knew Doc to do. Although I am sure that he may have done this, when you went in to see him, he would do his best to further develop and improve what you came in with, embouchure-wise, until a change was called for when a "stymie" was reached, if it ever was.
You say that Doug E. "moved your horn angle AROUND"! What does "around" mean? It is either higher or lower, not around!
And he "placed you very high" and then "very low" ... what problems, specifically, were you having to cause him to do this? How far were you developed, as far as area one, at the time? I am not saying that he was wrong to do this. Just as you want to know answers, please tell us the "why" of this one.

And your "trying to direct the airstream down" when you became your IVA present embouchure ... be aware that no one can "try to direct the airstream up OR down...it either goes UP or DOWN ... nothing you need to do about this.

"Knock it in"? "Baby it in"? These are two approaches for the professional or seasoned player that are necessary to be able to do depending on THE DAILY RESPONSE factor. NOT for the novice!
i Think that before introducing the Pivot Stabilizer, The Spider Web with ARROWS from a maj.4th on up and down will suffice to teach them the Pivot. Get that "middle Bb Concert" with the 4 legs established and you can do wonders without moving any placements.

A real good idea that Bill G. suggested, call him, or me, or Rich, or Chris, or someone versed in Placements, Jaw positions, Horn angles, etc...and say "what specifically" with each and every student..."few problems have a single answer".
Your questions are terrific. Doc always said that the only stupid question is the one that you don't ask. Don't stop asking, Dave. All of us that saw Doc will tell you our information from the "sea of information" that Doc left, through his books, tapes and private lessons. Thanks.
Dave S.

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-04-23 07:25 ]

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-04-23 07:31 ]

[Wilktone]

Two more questions I've thought of.

I've seen players who use two different mouthpiece placements/embouchure types for different parts of their range. Say, for example, a student places the mouthpiece like a Type IVA for the upper register but plays everything else on a Type IIIB. Which embouchure would you have that student work Pivot System studies on? Let's complicate the answer by stating that this student also has difficulty bringing the high range setting down into the middle and low register.

What about trombone students who play their pedal tones on a different embouchure than the rest of their range, or just can't even play pedal tones yet? What do you give these students for the warm-down prior to resting?

Dave W.

[bgibson]

Dave W.;
Have to see the person before I say anything.
There are too many factors to consider.
Doc said, "one embouchure, the entire range of the horn."
But, there are exceptions to the rule.
Some very well known exceptions.
It depends on the individual.
A warm down???????????????????????????????????????????
What is that??????
I just stop playing and put the horn in the case.
I don't ever remember Doc saying anything about a warm down.
WEG

[Mr.Hollywood]

Actually Doc did have a warm down.

He told me to play middle C,D,E,F,G with my cheeks out, and then run my low chromatics.

He said; "get in the habit of doing this every time you're ready to put the horn away."

Sounds like a warm down to me.

I've been doing this for almost 25 years, and it works great.

Chris

[Wilktone]

By "warm down" I mean the pedal notes for trombone and low chromatics for trumpet that you are instructed to do in between exercises or before you put the instrument away. I think this comes from the tapes/CDs I got through Dave S. Dr. Reinhardt also instructed this at certain points in the "Encyclopedia." For example, in between stages of the flip routine.

[airdyn]

Okay...Doc called it "winding down" ... warm-down to me has the smatterings of Maggio ... those pedal players ( I'm talking trumpet here) think they NEED to warm down ... maybe they do...it's something i , with Doc's advice, avoided my entire playing career (over 50 years now).

For any brass instruments, before resting i.e. during practice periods, ALWAYS play some low chromatics ( or pedal notes for trombone) to 1. relax the lips and 2. if playing many high notes, this will make sure that the middle and low registers keep their sound...nothing is more unwanted is a high note player with a thin, lousy middle and low register ... the cheek puff mentioned by Chris is GREAT , not only for "winding down', but for "reminding you of your 4 legs" before the low chromatics and resting.

As to the IIIB going into the IV when playing high, now your getting personal! This was the first 10 years of my problem when I started with Doc in 1952. I stayed as a IIIB. Why? 90% of my playing career was in the low C to high C range. As they say, "Above high C is the high register, below the high C is the cash register". At least it was in the old days. I didn't make my career as a high note player or just a lead player. The IIIB is the "bread and butter' of the trumpet player...ask any great lead player worth his salt and he will say how important that IIIB 2nd trumpet player is...or better still, ask Rich Willey with his experience with Maynard's Band.

How did Doc "get me over the hump" from "pulling down" too far and getting lower and lower the higher I played? There is not enough space here to tell you.

Thanks for listening.

Dave S.

[bgibson]

Dave S, Dave W, Chris;
I meant a long drawn out warm down, not the winding down routine.
I know several brass players that do a very long and needless warm down that seems to go on aimlessly for -------------.
One time I told one alleged lead trumpet player during his warm down that he could meet me at the bar where I would be doing my warm down with some cold aluminum.
I do the cheek routines every playing day and have been for 21 years.
They are great. Thank you Doc.
WEG

[Wilktone]

[Wilktone]

I was re-reading this topic and came across something Dave S. wrote that I glossed over:

[Mr.Hollywood]

Dave W.

Its funny because I just read your re-post of Dave Sheetz's post and something struck me.....

Doc told me; "I don't want to build a new dyke, I just want to plug the holes in your old one."

Another thing he used to say was that he had only changed one embouchure since 1960, and that was a guy named Lyle Van Wie.

So Dave Sheetz really did hit the nail on the head with what he said about area one.


Now if we can only find out what the goverment does at area 51..........???????


Chris