Bb Trumpet Comparo Results

nowave · Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject:

Thanks for this - very interesting. Would love to hear the full list of 12, as well as some additional commentary on the top six. It says a lot about the stock Kanstul and Schilke that they stack up to the custom horns in the mix.

Geodude · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject:

What is the difference between "absolute" and "perfect" pitch? I thought I knew what perfect pitch was but I don't think I'd heard of "absolute pitch" before reading your post.

Would the Harry James Selmer have ended up being the king of the hill if it had been a contestant rather than the control or am I reading something into your description that you did not intend?

I'm with Nowave. Please tell us more. I'm sure we are not the only folks that would like to learn more about your results/impressions. It is great to read something other than "everybody knows Acme Paintpeelers are junk, my Ajax Stupendous Tone is so, so much better. . ."

richardwy · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject:

What fun it must have been Dave. "Fun" being a very elastic adjective -- full of interest, discovery, and good intent.
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1972 Selmer Radial

A.N.A.Mendez · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject:

WOW! A post with substance and backup! Cool!
I think I asked when you were contemplating this if you had considered a similar test with some vintage horns? That would generate a lot of interest in this and other forums....?
Sounds like a lot of work.!!!
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☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚

ford850 · Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject:

I find it interesting that the horns you chose appear to be "larger" bore models as was your “control factor" horn. Is your every day horn a large bore as well?
What mouthpiece/ leadpipe gap were you trying to maintain or did you adjust the gap for optimal performance with each horn?
Thanks for sharing this...very interesting.
_________________
Mark LaSavio
Shires CVLA
Kanstul Destino Bb
Getzen Renaissance 20S
Stomvi Master Bb cornet
Belcanto C

gozzo · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:13 am Post subject:

Hi Dave thanks for the in depth discourse.I would be very keen to hear your thoughts regarding a comparison of your Scodwell with the HJ model Selmer.
I find my Scodwell projects beautifully but I don't get much aural feedback from the horn. Does the blow resistance of the HJ Selmer compare favourably with the Scodwell?
Kind Regards
Andy

65strad · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:59 am Post subject:

Dave,

Your comment about the Bach NY #7 being the best Bb from any era is a pretty strong endorsement. Is this horn an older NY era Bach or the new NY #7 197 with the gold slides?

I have played the new NY #7 and find it the easiet nicest playing Bb that I have played as well although I'm not crazy about its looks.

I'm having a custom Bb make by Bach that has a standard weight body with a 43 Lt weight bell in gold brass with a French bead and the old style bracing. I hope that it has some of the great playing qualities of the NY #7.
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

The question was asked what the difference between absolute and perfect pitch was. Perfect pitch [either a curse or a blessing depending on the playing situation] is the ability to hear and recognize every pitch you hear with perfect intonation. If you're surrounded by an out of tune group for instance, it will drive you crazy. A piano that's bad seems even worse to those folks. I have never gotten a satisfactory answer, however, if the perfect pitch person hears in A-440 or elsewhere up or down the scale. Absolute pitch is the ability to hear an A and adjust your brain to that pitch and play other notes in tune relative to what you've tuned up to. I believe absolute and relative pitch are interchangeable terms. Perfect pitch is something you're born with and absolute can be [and should be] learned.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns
"Live In The Studio" by the Tony Scodwell Big Band now at CD Baby
"Big Band Classics featuring Tony Scodwell" out now from Hal Leonard

Geodude · Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:10 am Post subject:

Thanks for cluing me in about pitch. I have no interest in hijacking the thread here but can you offer up some suggestions on how a trumpet student (11 yr old 6th grader) goes about developing absolute pitch? I'm sure my son would welcome some advice from somebody that actually knows something rather than Dad, "the did you practice yet ?" curmudgeon.

michael manthey · Heavyweight Member Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 1116

I went back to read Dave's original post, and it seems to be gone. Not edited, but gone. Anyone know what happened?
_________________
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Stomvi USA FLEX Mpc
Bob Reeves Mpc's
Kanstul Mpc's
'The Brass Spa' Practice Mute
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

65strad · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:03 am Post subject:

I was wondering the same thing because of Daves comment about the Bach NY #7.
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:41 am Post subject:

I thought it was a very fair and un-biased test, done by some very qualified players.

michael manthey · Heavyweight Member Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 1116

I sent a PM to the moderator(s). Very odd that Daves original post is gone completely while the thread remains intact. Perhaps it was one of those cyber accidents noone can explain. I saw nothing controversial in the post what so ever. As a matter of fact it seemed as though this is a thread that could last a very long time as Dave and his friends aquire more trumpets to test and review. 'If' I hear back from the moderators I'll keep you posted.
_________________
Michael Manthey
Scodwell USA Trumpets
Stomvi USA FLEX Mpc
Bob Reeves Mpc's
Kanstul Mpc's
'The Brass Spa' Practice Mute
www.ultrapureoils.com
Maynard Ferguson BBN Band

Moderators · TH Moderator Group Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 3906

We're looking into it. At present, no idea. - Moderators

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject:

Thanks for checking. My above post has been edited.

Moderators · TH Moderator Group Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 3906

From Google cache, sorry if there are about formatting problems.
________________________________
About a year ago, I and three of my trumpet playing (full time) friends elected to do a playing/visual comparison of as many Bb trumpets as the owners and distributors would place in our merciless, temporary custody. Prior to you flamers loading your weapons, let it be known that this is our test and was conducted via our rules. A surprisingly large number of horns were offered up. All of the instruments were thoroughly inspected internally (via fiber optics) and by sight externally. We had no interest in testing horns that contained samples of last nights “mac and cheese dinner”. Similarly, we did not test instruments having broken braces or major dents. Horns having those problems were immediately sent, at our expense, via insured mail, back to their owners. Also sent along was a letter of explanation.

After some discussion, it was decided that I would do all of the playing. My fellow adjudicators would each monitor the decibel meters (3) which were set at 30 feet, 75 feet and 110 feet from the bell of the horn under examination. The same venue, a major auditorium, was used for all of the play testing. The only persons in the room were we four examiners and one custodian. The mouthpiece employed for all of the play tests was a Bob Reeves designed custom piece built for me and based upon a New York, Vincent Bach 5V. Mouthpiece to lead pipe gap was controlled where necessary, via shim stock (paper).

The numbers played were done in exactly the same order for all of the selected horns. The numbers are: Mahler 5 Trauermarsch, principal trumpet part (generally performed upon a C trumpet, but here, Bb instruments were employed)….A Trumpeter’s Prayer, solo part….Trumpet Blues and Cantable’, lead trpt. part….The Mole, lead trpt. part….Carnival of Venice, Del Staigers’ version….Scherzo, Edwin Franko Goldman, James Burke version. The play tests were conducted over five days

For a “control factor”, we employed a 1952 era, Selmer Paris 25A (balanced model) .472 bore, gold plated, fully engraved Bb trumpet, originally built for and extensively played by Harry James. The instrument is in pristine, original condition internally and externally. It has never been restored. It wasn’t necessary. I have never played a Bb trumpet with any greater or more musical projection.

Due to contractural constraints, the examiners other than yours truly, will remain anonymous. Yours truly and two of the examiners possess absolute pitch, the remaining member possess perfect pitch.

The criteria: blow resistance, tone, intonation, valve action, fit and finish.

After all of the inspections were completed, eighteen trumpets were selected and play tested.

The serial numbers and bore dimensions of the top three finishers will be listed. Only the top six will in total, be listed.

In the order of finish they are:

1. Scodwell, dual bore .464/.460, custom built, balanced configuration, serial number #41612, privately owned.
2. Lawler, .464, custom built, balanced configuration, serial number #0905, privately owned.
3. Kanstul “Chicago 1001”, standard model, serial number #25946, privately owned.

4. Lawler Balanced model, not a “standard model’” but not specifically custom built for a specific customer. Privately owned.
5. Schilke B1, standard model, privately owned
6. Bach Strad, “New York 7 model, privately owned. This is the finest Bach Bb trumpet from ANY ERA that I have played. The fit, finish (internally and externally), valves, intonation and musical sound were superb.

The final twelve were silver and/or gold plated. None of the final twelve had any manner of sheet metal braces. None of the final twelve had bell diameters that exceeded 4 7/8 inches. All of the final fourteen were of yellow and or gold brass construction. All of the final twelve had one piece bells.

There now seems to be sufficient interest for us to do a similar test with Bb cornet, the higher keyed trumpets and Bb fleuglehorns. It is a laborous, time consuming operation. It is likewise, expensive. Stay tuned.

Cheers,

Dave Belknap
trumpet/cornet/fleuglehorn
Local #47, American Federation of Musicians
Hollywood, CA

lh · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject:

That was one of the best posts I have ever seen here. Thanks Dave, for posting. I hope it returns soon.

Edit: Wow! That was fast!

Dave
lh
_________________
Eclipse Enigma Bb trumpet 2011
Olds Super Bb trumpet 1958
Eclipse Red Flugelhorn 2011
Selmer Paris model 59 Piccolo 1977
Conn New Invention Cornet 1913

veery715 · Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject:

Glad to have the OP back! Thanks, mods.

It's a total wonderment that any of this stuff works at all, IMHO, and I make my living with it! 101010101010101000110010101001010........
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veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.

dave belknap · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 677

Gentlemen:

You have my sincere thanks for the re-post. Being a simple (take that as you see fit) trumpet player, I've not a clue as to what might have happened to the original post.

Cheers,

Dave Belknap
trumpet/cornet/fleuglehorn
Local #47, American Federation of Musicians
Hollywood, CA

dave belknap · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 677

Dear Ford850,

My everday horn(s) are large and medium large bore instruments.

Cheers,

Dave Belknap
trumpet/cornet/fleuglehorn
local #47, American federation of Musicians