Bose Panaray Sound System

[gillie89]

Our church (large, open, very reverberant) just tested a Bose Panaray Sound System and we were blown away by the clarity of the sound and how the echo disappeared.

The 2 speakers were about 6 feet tall each and maybe 3-4 inches wide.
The speakers were driven by our existing amps and whatever else is in our rack. This composite system sounded fantastic! Even people who are hard of hearing heard better than they ever had before (the readings, the homily, the prayers, annoucements). It was truly amazing how compatible that system was in our space. Sound seemed to reach into every corner.

I feel pretty confident the company will try to sell us a whole package of new equipment to compliment the speakers.

Do we really need to replace the amps and the other stuff in the rack if the system sounded so good using our old equipment with the new speakers?

Is my frugal approach penny wise and pound foolish?

Any input greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Gillie

[Don Herman rev2]

Hmmm... That sounds more like an L1 system, not a Panaray??? Take a look here: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation?q=bose&st=

Bias note: I do not care for the Panaray's in general, but ymmv.

I am not sure what else they would sell you; Bose does not make a lot of "other" stuff in the sound reinforcement arena, like mixers and effects etc.

The Panaray requires amplifiers. If I was getting a Panaray, I would probably spring for their active EQ box. It is expensive (~$600) but is designed to balance the frequency response of the Panaray and is (imo, and probably their's) needed to get the best sound out of them. You will probably want a good subwoofer with the Panarays.

The L1 includes built-in amplifiers so you shouldn't need anything else, and could in fact get rid of your current amps (or use them elsewhere). The Bose sub with the L1 is not bad, but if you have an electronic organ you are likely going to want a bigger sub. There's a reason they sell a dual system with quad bass modules.

HTH - Don

p.s. You might want to go to the Auralex site and fill out their free room analysis form. If the room is too live it can muddy the sound no matter what sound system you have. Go to www.auralex.com then follow the Support Services -> Personal Room analysis links. Sweetwater Sound has a free large room analysis form in their current WorshipSoundPro catalog, but Sweetwater does not carry Bose.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[gillie89]

Thanks Don.

Just got an estimate (not a detailed proposal yet) that includes:

2 main speakers (whatever model they are)
Subwoofer
Two wireless head-worn mics
DSP, equalizer, processor
One new amplifier (probably to replace one of our old ones)
Cables, connectors, Labor and Engineering

FWIW, our space has already been analyzed and the speakers tweaked (over a period of about 6 hours) through a computer. So I think they know what they are going for in our space. And I think they got it right.

My concern is that they will try to sell us a lot of stuff we don't really need. Do you think the DSP, equalizer and processor are all part of the Bose System that are "must haves"? I cannot find anything to answer these questions on their website.

I guess I'll know when we get the real proposal. And of course, I can ask the contractor, but I'm assuming he will tell me why we should buy everything they are suggesting for optimal performance.

Frankly, I don't see how the performance could be any better than the demo. The difference was astounding.

G

[Don Herman rev2]

As a rule, I get nervous when asked to verify/confirm the suggestions of an on-site contractor (or teacher, or...) Second-guessing over the Internet is not usually a great idea, as you have no idea the competence of the person providing the advice. I can provide my qualifications, but still am not there to see what you have and might need.

Knowing which system you are looking at makes a difference. Did it look like the Panaray 402 or 802 Bose Panaray or the L1 system Bose L1 ? The controller is required for the Panaray speakers -- it's essentially a group of smallish long-throwspeakers that must be EQ'd to provide flat response. The L1 line arrays with subs have an optional ("Tone Match") controller that may not be required but is probably a good idea assuming Bose stuck with the "small speakers, long throw, lots of EQ" approach (I have heard but am less familiar with the L1 systems). Since he took the time to tweak the settings to your space and you liked the results, I would accept that recommendation and get the DSP unit.

The L1 has built-in power amplifiers, so if there's a new amp involved maybe it's the 402? If your current amps are good I don't see why you'd need to replace the amp, but your contractor is in a better position to know what you have and what you need. Maybe you have an amp going bad? I would ask why he is suggesting each piece, what it offers over what you have, and what is the trade if you don't get it. Maybe there's an audio geek in your congregation you could ask to help out?

No need for wireless mics unless you are planning to upgrade anyway; they certainly aren't required for the speakers, and almost certainly are not Bose . However, wireless mics are a nice thing to have. We have been using Shure ULX systems (with standard 58 mic capsules on the transmitters to save money, though have one headset as well) and like them. Whatever you get, you should ask if they will have any issue with the upcoming change in FCC allocations that may impact the 700 - 900 MHz band. You may want systems in a different band, or at the least with a good selection of channels, and you'll want to register your system so any new systems set up don't interfere.

So, without knowing exactly what is being suggested and your situation, I would not disagree with your contractor. The DSP unit was set up for your space and that's worth something, both in sound quality and your contractor's time and effort. I would say that's a requirement. Ditto the subwoofer -- any of the Bose systems need a decent sub for full-range sound and you will miss it if you don't have it. Personally, unless it's a small church, I'd go for two subs. The amp may offer some significant advantage over your current amp; I can't say. Wireless mics are nice, but be sure the people will use the head worn versions (most everybody gets used to them, but some people really don't like them). I don't think there's a lot of extra stuff in there -- the DSP/EQ is probably one (Bose) unit, needed by the speakers and custom tuned for your space.

HTH - Don
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[gillie89]

These are the speakers we tried out: Panaray MA12

http://pro.bose.com/ProController?url=/pro/products/panaray/panarayma12.jsp

What you said makes sense to my non-technical ear regarding the components.

I know you can't speak with definitive certitude, not being on site, but I appreciate sharing your expertise. It helps.

Thanks again,
Gillie

[Don Herman rev2]

Oops, missed that one!

It is an unpowered system so you need an amp. It does not have to be a Bose amp (I do not have current experience with Bose amps; they were not well-respected in the past, but times change and I don't know what amp your contractor is bidding). The advantage of the Bose amps is that they work with EQ cards for the speakers, but the main Panaray DSP unit (that I assume is bid) should handle that for any amp.

Aside: You may question the amp's power level, particularly if it seems higher than you might think you need. It takes a lot of power to recreate voice and music, and line arrays are not terribly efficient. Note that most speakers are destroyed by underpowered amps, not too much power. When amps are overdriven they cut off the tops of waveforms (clip) and that generates a lot of power at very high frequencies. The speakers can't move fast enough to output the HF junk, and so the energy is converted into heat in the speakers, and they (the voice coils) burn up.

I would consider the Panaray EQ module essential; otherwise, you are looking at a lot of effort to EQ the system with a conventional equalizer. I also prefer to isolate the EQ for specialized speakers like these from the main EQ, and it looks like the Panaray unit will handle phasing/delay and such as well as basic EQ. Consider it part of the speaker system.

I would also consider the subwoofer essential. The line array does not have extended frequency response (155 Hz to 12 kHz) -- it's an array of a dozen small'ish 2 1/4" speakers). You probably won't notice the loss in the high frequencies, but will definitely know the bottom has gone away (for reference, the low E on a guitar is about 42 Hz, and you will lose the percussive attacks from drums and piano). I prefer a pair of subs, both for the greater output and because the main speaker's LF cutoff is high enough that you may notice the directionality from a single sub. That said, most churches don't utilize a full stereo feed, so it might not matter to you.

The big advantage of line arrays like those is not that they have the best sound, it's that they have decent sound over a broad area and are relatively unobtrusive. That's important in a house of worship. They are also fairly lightweight, which is nice if you want to vary the stage/alter now and then (though you may need to redo the setup if you move them permanently).

Bose announced layoffs a week or two ago, so you should be able to get a good deal. Historically, they have not discounted their products, or very little.

Enjoy the new system! - Don
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[gillie89]

Thanks, Don.

Just send me your bill!

Or, if you ever get to York, PA, let me know. The drinks will be on me.

Peace,
Gillie

[lmf]

gillie,

I believe all the Bose PA Systems require their specific equalizer to get the unique "Bose" sound. I may be wrong, but I suspect the "Bose-specific" equalizer system will need to be purchased. Your Bose dealer should be the one to enlighten you on that. I've not used Bose systems without the Bose equalizer, nor have I heard of dealers recommending other equalizers with Bose for that very same reason.

Most dealers carry other equalizers, so there is no reason that I know of other than Bose systems require their own equalizer. Otherwise, the dealer could sell you ANY equalizer product from another manufacturer and still make money.

Bose speakers used to take a large amplifier, but today their speakers may be more efficient requiring less amp power than they used to. Thet more powerful amplification worked best on Bose in the past.

If I am wrong, someone please advise.

Best wishes,

Lloyd

[Don Herman rev2]

gillie89 -- No prob, although chances are you'll never have to make good on that one! I don't get out east much, and never (so far) to PA.

Lloyd -- You don't have to use a Bose equalizer, but it's by far the best approach as the EQ needed to get full-range sound from a bunch of small speakers is fairly significant. Long, long ago Bose published the EQ curve required for several of their speakers, but I did not see it anywhere on their site now (though I did not look hard). Since Bose has done all the work for you, it makes sense to just buy the Bose EQ system. I notice they have unbundled it now, but as I said above I would just get their's and be done with it, so we agree on that.

Part of the reason for the large amp, and general inefficiency, is because the midrange has to be cut pretty heavily so the speakers are flat in the bass region. I doubt that has changed since the MA12 still uses an array of small speakers. Other speaker types are more efficient, but there are other considerations than efficiency (like sound and how it loks inn the sanctuary). A significant amount of power is required for sound reinforcement in any event, and to cover the music peaks.

FYI, 3 dB of change in volume is the threshold most people find that music sounds louder. (People can hear <1 dB with test tones and careful A-B tests, but for most people listening to music it's about 3 dB). 3 dB takes twice the power. Which also means that when a salesman tells you stepping up from the 110 W receiver to a 120 W one gives you a lot louder sound is blowing smoke (or, there's a lot more than just the power differences going on). The peak-to-average power ratio in music is about 17 dB, which implies a 50:1 power margin if you want to ensure the system never clips. If your system is cruising along at 5 W, that means you need 250 W to avoid clipping on most musical material.

I heard the old Bose amp (1801 or something like that -- the big one) many times and it was a piece of... Let's just say, it was not well received by the audiophile or sound reinforcement people at the time (80's). I have not heard any of their new amps so have no comment.

FWIWFM - Don
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[lmf]

Hi, Don,

Yea, I heard that the Bose equalizer seems to bring the best sound out of the Bose speakers. I suspected one could use any number of equalizers, but they would not be optimally suited for the Bose System. If I were buying Bose, I would purchase their equalizer for their equipment.

I've seen groups use the Bose speaker system, but with their own board and power amps or integrated amps not Bose. Probably they do that for the purpose you mentioned as it relates to Bose amps.

Thanks for the information that clarifies several things.

Best wishes,

Lloyd

[gillie89]

I found this page that says the system will work with other amps that comply with industry standards, but it sounds like the system controller (is that the DSP in the proposal?) and the equalizer are parts of the package.

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/panaray_ma12/td_panaray_ma12.pdf

Don, would you go with another brand of amp if the contractor agrees with you that Bose amps weren't/aren't that good compared to some others? We currently have 2 JBLs (one was just repaired).

G

[Don Herman rev2]

Yes, the system controller is the DSP (the Panaray unit, I am virtually certain) and you can use whatever power amps after it that you wish. Here's a link to the controller: http://pro.bose.com/ProController?url=/pro/products/panaray/panaraysyscon.jsp That's the Bose EQ unit for the speakers under discussion, and I'd consider that part of the speaker package.

As I said, I really hate second-guessing your guy on the scene... I do not know about the current crop of Bose amps. However, I did not know JBL even made amps (except as integrated into their active powered speakers), so take that for what's worth. Do you know if he's suggesting Bose amps or another brand? In any event, you can ask and see what he says. If he wasn't around in the late 70's early 80's he might not know about the early Bose amps. I'd be more interested in the present models and how they compare with some of the current crop of amps from e.g. mackie, Crown, Bryston, etc. (Aside: I have been through three Crest amps under warranty and don't plan on another...) If he agrees that the Bose amps aren't all that great, of course I'd go with another brand, starting by asking what's wrong with keeping the ones you have.

HTH - Don
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[gillie89]

Just got the detailed proposal although it's not that detailed.

To quote the proposal:

"Provide one amplifier for the main speaker system" (picture of a Crown CD 1000 amp)

"Use 2 existing JBL amplifiers for the remote speakers and subwoofer"
(they are going to reposition some smaller speakers to make sure the nooks and crannies are covered)

"Provide one automatic mixer for the spoken word microphones" (there is a picture and it looks like the word "Nexla" or something on it)

"In order to guarantee the sound quality of the system, one DSP/Equalizer/Processor will be installed. The equalizer will be adjusted to provide a clear and natural sound"

Sound about right?

G

[Don Herman rev2]

Sounds reasonable... I did not go back and look at the speakers, but I think they are 8 ohm impedance, which means the CDi1000 might be a little low in power but it depends upon the size and accoustics (and budget) of your church. I am also not sure why he choose the CDi series, which includes on-board DSP, since I assume the Panaray controller should handle that for the speakers and the CTs or XLS series is probably cheaper. Have I mentioned I hate second-guessing the guy on the spot?

I would verify that the DSP unit he is talking about is the Bose Panaray controller. He can EQ the system with something else, just be interesting to know if he is using the Bose unit or not.

I don't know about "Nexla" but "automatic mixers" are typically mixers with noise gates included -- they mute the mics when not in use, and mix them in when somebody speaks into them. This helps keep noise and other signals from sneaking in when you don't want the mic(s) in play. We have two PreSonus compressors/noise gate units at our church, and I really like the flexibility. The compressor allows you to let the system compensate for a fairly wide range of voices, good for lay readers and such (whom in our church range from the timid quiet type to basketball coaches who can be heard two blocks away) at the lecturn mic. The preacher is fairly consistent, so I use less compression on the pulpit mic.

One catch is that, in our church, the band is not far from the pulpit, so that noise gate is hardly used (the volume is loud enough to trigger it most of the time, and if I set it higher we lose softer comments/prayers from the preacher). I suggest muting the mic channels when not in use, though that implies somebody at the board who's on the ball to do that (and unmute when needed).

Depending on the size of your church and instrumentation, I would ask the price of a second subwoofer and whether it would help.

Sounds like your guy is on the ball. - Don
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[gillie89]

Maybe the Crown is enough for the 2 main speakers (although I remember what you said about taking a lot of juice to reproduce the human voice. I need to ask our guy about that). Our JBL amps are going to be used to power 4 remote speakers and the subwoofer.

We have the same kind of proclaimers of the Word - from mousey to monstrously loud. He said one of the components is the "brain" that will make automatic adjustments as needed.

But from what you say, it sounds like there might be some redundancy. I can ask about that too.

I will also ask about another subwoofer. They are thinking of positioning it in a place in our sanctuary behind the high altar. I think they are thinking the cone/shell shape of the sanctuary wall will throw the sound out. Kind of a low tech way to use the existing architecture.

I appreciate your input, Don. It's giving me lots of good questions.

Peace,
Gillie

[Don Herman rev2]

Quick comments:

1. Yes, I understood the new Crown is just for the mains, it's just a little on the low side (275 W/ch into 8 ohms) for what I would suggest for a "large" area (from your first post). There are way too many variables for me to state you need more (or less) power.

2. The voice is actually not all that bad, particularly for speech which tends to have relatively narrow dynamic and frequency ranges (more is required for singers). The instruments need a lot of power, particularly percussive instruments with a lot of dynamic range (e.g. piano, drums). A study long, long ago using some high-end large speakers of the time (Bozarth, I think, in the 1970's) found 500 W+ was needed to reproduce a piano in the same room with the same volume and clarity without clipping. The study used microphones and measurements, though I think there were some "golden ears" as well.

3. If the automatic mixer includes a compressor (as it very well might), then you are covered for different speakers. Within reason.

4. It sounds like a single sub may work in your situation. With speakers that have relatively high low ends (>100 Hz or so) I prefer stereo pairs with the sub near the main speakers to preserve the stereo image. It also helps having the percussive waves come out in phase with the mains. However, churches often mix to mono (or effectively so), so it very well may not matter in your case. The DSP can correct the time delay between the mains and the sub (and hopefully the remote speakers as well).

We have a curved (parabolic) wall in our church behind the choir. It looks nice, and I'm sure somebody thought it was a good idea for directing the choir's sound out, but sonically is not really a desirable thing. It does throw the choir's sound out well, but the focal point means the side pews get neglected (we had to add side speakers as well) and somebody talking in the grand foyer (about 80' away) can be heard perfectly clearly when you stand at the focal point of the parabola, which is just in front of our altar... It is great for eavesdropping! It also means that the ushers at the back have to be weally, weally quiwet...
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley